Hey what's up hello! This week Kayla and Sarah are joined once again by Sarah's sister Emily! Emily talks about unhealthy and abusive relationships, specifically in queer relationships. Typically we think of the man being the perpetrator of abuse, but what happens when there is no man in a relationship or two men?
TW: Mentions of mental and physical abuse, self harm, suicide.
If you or someone you know is in need of help in an abusive situation, call 1-800-799-7233 or visit www.thehotline.org
Episode Transcript: www.soundsfakepod.com/transcripts/unhealthy-queer-relationships-feat-sarahs-sister
Donate: patreon.com/soundsfakepod
Follow: @soundsfakepod
Join: https://discord.gg/W7VBHMt
Buy our book: www.soundsfakepod.com/book
Hey what's up hello! This week Kayla and Sarah are joined once again by Sarah's sister Emily! Emily talks about unhealthy and abusive relationships, specifically in queer relationships. Typically we think of the man being the perpetrator of abuse, but what happens when there is no man in a relationship or two men?
TW: Mentions of mental and physical abuse, self harm, suicide.
If you or someone you know is in need of help in an abusive situation, call 1-800-799-7233 or visit www.thehotline.org
Episode Transcript: www.soundsfakepod.com/transcripts/unhealthy-queer-relationships-feat-sarahs-sister
Donate: patreon.com/soundsfakepod
Follow: @soundsfakepod
Join: https://discord.gg/W7VBHMt
Buy our book: www.soundsfakepod.com/book
Sarah: Hey, what's up? Hello. Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aroace girl, I'm Sarah, that's me...
Kayla: And a demi-straight girl, that's me, Kayla...
Emily: And Sarah's lesbian sister, Emily...
Sarah: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality and pretty much anything else we just don't understand.
Kayla: On today's episode, unhealthy queer relationships. Sounds fake, but okay.
Both: Sounds fake, but okay.
Sarah: Welcome back to the pod.
Kayla: M'sister.
Sarah: No, I really hate that.
Emily: What does that mean?
Kayla: M'Emily,
Sarah: She's been m'... Like, you know when people are like m'lady, she's been doing that with a different word at the beginning of every m'.
Kayla: M'arinara. That's a good one.
Emily: Oh, just tipping the top hat that you're not wearing?
Kayla: Tipping the... They don't know. I could be wearing a-
Sarah: I mean, every time, Kayla does tip...
Kayla: Tip my, you know.
Sarah: Okay.
Kayla: M'hat.
Sarah: What are we talking about this week?
Kayla: I don't know, truly.
Sarah: Emily, you're my sister. Do you want to reintroduce yourself to our listeners and then tell us a little bit about what we're talking about this week?
Emily: Hello, listeners. There are many more of you since the last time I was on.
Kayla: That's very true.
Emily: Which means that more people will hear me speak.
Sarah: I mean, not wrong.
Kayla: Maybe no one will listen to this one. Just think about it like that.
Emily: Okay. Yeah, I'm Emily. I'm related to Sarah in a sibling way. I'm older than her.
Kayla: Oh my God.
Emily: I guess I'm a lesbian, as they say.
Kayla: I guess.
Emily: Yep. I'm 23. I just got my sister's car towed and I got it back.
Sarah: She did do that.
Kayla: Do you like piña coladas? And-
Sarah: Getting caught in the rain?
Kayla: Getting caught in the rain?
Emily: Piña coladas taste like lotion.
Kayla: It's true, they do taste like that. All coconut tastes like lotion. I don't like coconut.
Sarah: I've never had coconut.
Kayla: You wouldn't like it.
Emily: I like unsweetened coconut, it's good.
Kayla: I don't like it.
Sarah: We digress.
Emily: And the topic is...
Kayla: The category is...
Emily: The category is unhealthy queer relationships, or what unhealthy relationships look like, how they're different in queer times.
Kayla: Times.
Sarah: Yeah, 'cause just because a person is in a queer relationship doesn't mean that there can't be unhealthy things, things that are not good, things that you want to get out of. And I feel like a lot of times too, people assume that in a relationship it's like, it's a man and it's a woman. So if there's something unhealthy it's the man doing it to the woman. But in a queer relationship that's not necessarily the case, and also in a straight relationship that's not necessarily the case. So it's a good thing to know about. So Emily, you made a Word document that got very detailed.
Kayla: I see a chart.
Sarah: Yeah.
Emily: The chart was-
Kayla: Wait, can I see that chart?
Emily: No, the chart was for a different pod topic I came up with. I'm just taking this over 'cause they came up with a bunch of topics and then I sent my sister a very extensive Word document that includes a chart.
Kayla: See, I thought I had seen that chart before 'cause...
Sarah: It's in the drive.
Kayla: I'm looking at it on her computer. But I knew someone that was in an emotionally abusive relationship, and I remember someone sending them a chart being like, "This is what an emotionally abusive relationship looks like." You know, what's funny is yours looks the same. And I remember looking at that going, "Mm-hmm, mm-hmm."
Emily: Yeah.
Kayla: So anyway.
Emily: When I was doing I guess research for this, because that's what I do, I found the power and control wheel, which is a commonly used chart in any women's studies course that you may encounter, or just generally.
Sarah: Kayla, are you in a feminism class?
Kayla: Yes.
Sarah: Okay, cool, thanks. Every week she's got to say it, it's informative.
Kayla: I don't have to, it just comes up.
Emily: So this little chart that, while you're listening you can't look at it.
Kayla: We can post it.
Sarah: We'll post it.
Emily: But it just covers some of the basic things that people use for power and control. And like Sarah was saying, a lot of times people assume that unhealthy or abusive relationships, it's primarily the man. Oh, I'm supposed to talk louder?
Sarah: Yeah.
Emily: Okay. And in the power and control wheel there's actually one piece of the pie that's entirely using male privilege, which I thought was interesting when I was looking at this. Because in queer relationships there isn't always a man, or there might be two. So it's...
Sarah: Using male privilege against another man.
Kayla: Yeah. It would be interesting to see it just say using privilege.
Emily: Yeah. I think part of the reason that it doesn't is because there are lots of ways that you can use privilege. So in the piece of the pie that says economic abuse, if you are financially in a higher socioeconomic status than someone, that's another form of privilege you could use. Or when using children.
Kayla: I was just learning in my class today about people who kill their children. Fun stuff. I wanted to learn about more murder in that class. And then I started learning about that and I kind of regretted wishing that. But part of it was like men killing their children to get back at their wives after divorce.
Sarah: Jesus. Okay.
Emily: That's horrible.
Kayla: Anyway.
Sarah: All right. Yeah. So I guess, what are the things you want to hit on? I feel like I'm in a writing consultation where I'm like, "What are the things you want to talk about in this essay?"
Kayla: I'm just here.
Sarah: Kayla just walked in.
Emily: Well one of the things that I really wanted to be on the podcast about was just to talk about that unhealthy and abusive relationships exist in queer spaces. And even if there's not a lot of research, or not research but resources, it still exists. So even when I was just poking around online today and I was looking for just different types of resources, on the National Domestic Violence Hotline website the tab for LGBTQ abuse is two paragraphs.
Sarah: Yikes.
Emily: So a lot of it has to do with outing a person as a means of power and control in an unhealthy relationship, or things like that. Which is a real thing that exists, but I think it's also not just limited to that. I think some of the same issues that occur in unhealthy or abusive heterosexual relationships, the same things exist in queer relationships, just perhaps not with the same gender dynamic that you might see. Not to say that women cannot be abusive towards men, but...
Sarah: Yeah. There's not an inherent dichotomy that's been forced onto them by society, of the man as the strong dude who might abuse the woman. There's not already that preconceived notion of what might happen.
Kayla: I kind of wonder if there's a lack of resources... 'Cause you would hope that maybe an LGBT or pride center would be a place where those resources would be. That seems like a good place for resources for abusive queer relationships to be in that queer space. But part of me wonders if it's because those queer spaces are worried about giving a bad reputation to queer relationships. I feel like I've heard of lesbians or gay people getting divorced and it being like, "Oh, you're making gay marriage look bad because you're supposed to be doing it better now that you have this privilege."
Emily: That's stupid.
Kayla: Yeah, obviously. But I kind of wonder if there's a lack of resources because you just want to make it seem like it doesn't happen. So you're like, "It's okay. These relationships are still okay and they should be allowed 'cause look how fine they are." You know?
Sarah: Or even if it's not an intentional thing, just kind of pushing it to the side because they don't want to accept that that's happening because then it just reflects poorly, poorly in quotes, on same sex marriage and stuff. Yeah, that makes sense.
Emily: Or I mean, I think a lot of LGBTQ resource centers are... I guess just depending on what the political climate is like. Obviously right now they're focusing a lot on trans rights and things of that nature, which is extremely important. But just because there are so many issues it's hard to give adequate attention to all the ones that need it, 'cause we really have to triage, "Okay, obviously trans rights are at the top of the list right now." There's a lot of other things, but that's where the attention needs to go. And just there's-
Sarah: That's the group that's most at risk.
Emily: Yeah. So it's like, okay, we kind of got over the hump of gay marriage... Oh, that was my computer. Got over the hump of gay marriage becoming legalized. What's next? So there's sort of a limit in the amount of resources, I suppose.
And then the other piece of it too is a lot of the times people who are in unhealthy and abusive relationships, it becomes very normalized. And so there may not be people that are like, "Oh, I think I'm in an unhealthy relationship. Let me Google what that is." Because if you're in it for a certain period of time then it just feels normal. And that's not correct, too. But that's not specific to queer relationships, that's just any relationship.
Sarah: But I think also if it is a queer relationship it could decrease the likelihood that someone from the outside realizes something's wrong, because if they're not expecting it... Because there's a lack of resources, because there's this lack of gender dynamics.
Kayla: I wonder also if there's a small percentage of people that are in queer relationships that maybe aren't out yet, or both partners aren't out or the relationship isn't super public. And so they can't go get resources without outing themselves. They literally can't go get help without potentially putting themselves in other kinds of harm.
Sarah: Yeah, that's fair. That's valid.
Emily: Mm-hmm. The other thing too is there isn't as much relationship modeling for queer couples. So there's lots of examples of healthy heterosexual partnerships that you can... In your real life or in the media or in shows or things like that, that you can look at and be like, "That's a great example of what a healthy relationship looks like." And the patterns you see in those relationships don't always translate onto exactly what the dynamic is like if you're in a queer relationship. And so it might be harder to identify when the differences in your relationship go beyond just, two women are going to act differently than a man and a woman, to this is now unhealthy.
Sarah: Right. And also just because a lot of those modeled relationships of, this is what a relationship should look like... I mean, it does play on gender roles. And so if you don't have those gender roles, whether it's a straight relationship or not, you just may not realize things.
You included a lot of links here.
Emily: Yeah, I did.
Sarah: What's happening?
Emily: Oh, I just put those in if you wanted to read them.
Sarah: Okay. Is there anything specific about them that you think are interesting?
Emily: Well, the one that I highlighted in yellow just is a generic sort of spectrum between a healthy, an unhealthy and an abusive relationship, which I think is a good list that in other times in my life I would've liked to have seen. Don't know if I would've acknowledged it, but...
Sarah: Yeah, it does seem helpful. Also, just stuff like that I think is applicable in a lot of situations. Not necessarily always romantic relationships, if you are in a QPR with someone, if you're just good friends with someone, maybe you live together, that sort of thing. And we'll post this on the Patreon, we'll put it on our Twitter. But yeah, I mean, a lot of it's just talking about like...
'Cause it is interesting seeing it as more of a spectrum between healthy, unhealthy and abusive. 'Cause I feel like a lot of times people view it as like, there's good and there's bad. But there's also kind of a middle ground, which I think it's interesting to see it explicitly laid out that way.
Emily: Another thing too that is different for the queer community is there's a higher rate of mental illness with people who identify as LGBTQ+. And so that can have an impact, both on people who are perpetrators of abuse or enabling an unhealthy relationship, and also people who are victims of that. And that could be a whole nother episode of just how mental illness and queer identities interact, because that's...
Sarah: A lot.
Emily: I can talk about that for an hour. But in my experience that has been something that has been very salient in relationships, that has caused issues.
Sarah: So Emily, I know that you have had some experiences with relationships that have not been totally healthy. Can you speak to those, about how that's been as a queer woman in that situation?
Emily: Yeah, that was one of the main reasons why I wanted to talk about this on here. And I'm not super articulate about exactly my message. You ask my professor, taught us about health communications, my messaging is poor. But...
Sarah: I don't even know what that sentence meant.
Kayla: This is good practice.
Emily: So I was in a relationship that was... I'm a woman, the relationship was with a woman. And it became unhealthy and abusive eventually. And it's taken me a while to process that and figure out what happened, because when you're in the situation, that's all you know. And it's very difficult to see outside of what's happening to you immediately. So it's very, very difficult for you to remove yourself and to look at it objectively and say, "This is what's happening. This is wrong." Because when you're in the middle of it you can't see a way out. And...
Sarah: And you're used to it, it's normalized.
Emily: Right. And so a lot of what I was experiencing was a lot of isolation and saying things about my friends that would lead me to be afraid to talk to them about what was going on with me, and also just not really validating my feelings. And it's difficult to explain well. And then eventually led to at the very end, some just... Emotional extortion is a good word.
Sarah: Yeah.
Emily: As well as some, I guess, using physical force and manipulation to stop me from leaving a situation where I felt very unsafe.
And it was also complicated by the fact that my former partner had a lot of mental illness issues that were happening around that time. And for me, as someone that had also had experience with mental illness, I felt some sort of duty or obligation to support that person through the process. But at some point it crossed a line. It went from me supporting someone through their process of dealing with mental illness to me being stuck in a relationship, where if I left I was genuinely afraid that my former partner would severely hurt themselves. And so that's something that's very tricky and complicated, and something that a lot of people deal with.
Sarah: And I think a lot of people stay in relationships like that because it's like, oftentimes they do care about the other person but they just end up prioritizing that person over their own wellbeing and safety.
Kayla: Yeah. I mean, I can't count the amount of stories I've heard, even in the media I feel like it's a common trope or actual people I know being like, "I want to break up with this person but they're threatening to kill themselves." And it puts people in a really tough spot of trying to deal with your own safety and health and of someone self.
Sarah: Yeah. And that happens in straight relationships and queer relationships. Yeah.
Emily: And I think it was... Yeah, there was a lot of factors playing into it. And I mean, like I said, you're so deep into it that you're so fixated on making sure that this person doesn't harm themselves, that you don't know how to take care of yourself. And it's a hard place to be because I think where I was at, I didn't know who to ask for help or I didn't know what to do, or I didn't... There was no clear answer. Because when you think of typical abuse you just think of some big scary guy that's hitting or punching his wife or girlfriend. There's less for like... in the context of dealing with mental illness and still having abusive behaviors.
However that being said, I want to make sure this is very clear. No matter what someone's going through, mental illness or otherwise, they're accountable for their actions. And it's never your fault. And you can never blame yourself for something that happens to you. Even if some of those behaviors are a result of addiction or mental illness or something else, they're always accountable for those behaviors no matter what.
Sarah: Yeah. Something like mental illness, the way I like to think of it is mental illness and addiction, that sort of thing. It might be a reason for a behavior but it's not an excuse for a behavior. And that's, I think, a good way to think of it.
Kayla: Yeah, because I mean, even if you don't want to think of it as that person's fault, you could just say it's the fault of the mental illness. 'Cause I think legally it gets weird with legal insanity, that people are found not guilty for reasons of insanity. So it's like, I don't know, the blame is kind of put on the mental illness rather than the actual person. But...
Sarah: But it's still them.
Kayla: It's still definitely not the victim that's doing anything.
Emily: Yeah. Well, and I think if there's someone who is untreated or not being treated properly for a mental illness and exhibits abusive behaviors, and then they are properly treated and engaging with whatever they need to be doing, and then are no longer exhibiting those behaviors, that's great, that's awesome, that's the goal. But no matter what, they're still accountable for what they did when they were not in the place, when they were not in a good place. Even with myself, if I'm... I don't know, I can't think of a good situation.
Sarah: Well I'm just thinking, say you're like... This is a different situation but it's the same idea. Say you're very depressed and you don't do any of your homework, and you don't turn in any of your homework. And your teacher's like, "I need to give you a zero." You can talk to your teacher and explain what happened and be like, "This is what's going on." And they may make some accommodations for you, but they're probably not going to give you full credit.
Emily: No, you still have to take the zero.
Sarah: It's still up to you to do the work and you didn't do it. And so they may be accommodating, but it's still your actions that you are dealing with.
Kayla: I think there's a level of understanding when it has to do with mental illness. If I was really depressed and anxious and was rude to someone or lashed out at someone, I think there would probably be a level of understanding of like, you didn't fully mean to do that but you're still the one that did that.
Sarah: You still did it.
Kayla: Yeah.
Emily: And I think that was something that I didn't understand and I had never had modeled for me. There's not a manual for how to deal or how to be in a relationship with someone that has a pretty significant mental illness. And so I was always, as far as my experiences with anxiety and depression like, that when I entered the relationship had been something that I had not overcome but had been working on and been dealing with and been actively seeking treatment for five years prior to me entering the relationship.
So I was always very much interested in being an advocate for mental health and supporting people as they were going through that process. But there is a line in the sand between supporting someone through a difficult time and sacrificing your own mental health, sacrificing your relationships with other people, sacrificing relationships with your family, with your friends. Because your identity and your passion shouldn't be in a relationship. Your self is always number one and you have to be the best you can be for yourself, not for someone else.
Sarah: Yeah. And that's something we've said multiple times on this podcast, is you and your safety and your health are always the thing that comes first. And it might make you feel guilty for putting yourself before another person, but I mean, at some point it's just going to have to happen. Just do your best. No one's expecting you to be perfect. And if someone is expecting you to be perfect then that's an unrealistic expectation, and maybe they should not.
Kayla: I also think it's important to note that that kind of relationship or that kind of balance is not... Since I know we have a lot of asexual and aromantic listeners that might not date or be in those kind of relationships. But that's still very much so a thing in friendships. I know someone that's helping a friend right now through something, and it's taxing and it's hard. And it's hard on their friendship and it's stressing that person out to help them, and it's impacting their health too. So this is not just something that happens in a romantic relationship. Very much so in friendships there can also be the balance of trying to take care of someone, and that's putting your own health at risk.
Sarah: Yeah. And this isn't to say that like, "Oh, you should never be friends with someone who has a mental illness," 'cause that's bullshit. That would be stupid.
Emily: And even in a relationship, that's absolutely not at all...
Sarah: Yeah. But you have to be realistic about your expectations of a person, I think. And it may take some time to figure out what's going on and where you are and where they are. But I think in the end you can't just let them get away with everything for the sake of being a good friend or being a good significant other, or not wanting to upset them. That sort of thing.
Emily: Yeah. And I know I was almost embarrassed, or I felt a sense of pride. I'm too proud to ask for help or I'm too proud to admit that this isn't working.
Sarah: Classic Costello behavior.
Emily: Yeah, exactly. But I'm too proud to talk to someone about this. And I've been trying so hard to convince myself that it's working that I need to convince other people that it's working even when it's not. And so I guess in my situation the bubble kind of burst in a 24-hour time span. And then-
Sarah: It was short.
Emily: It was. And then I was kind of left to pick up the pieces. And I had a lot of really hard conversations with friends and with family about just where I was at and how a lot of this stuff had been happening and they didn't know.
Sarah: Yeah. I didn't know a lot. There was a lot that I didn't know.
Emily: Yeah. I guess if you have anything to add about your outside perspective of this.
Sarah: Yeah. For me it was just, I think two things that that really stood out to me were... The first one was something that I noticed throughout the entire relationship, and that was that when you were with that person you acted different than you did when you were not with that person. And that was something that I didn't like, partially because I was like, "This is dumb. Why should you be changing your behavior for someone you're in a relationship with?" And also because I didn't like that version of you as much.
Kayla: I mean, I'm assuming you mean a major change.
Sarah: Noticeable.
Kayla: Yeah, 'cause I think people act different in different social circles often, and that's pretty normal. But...
Sarah: Yeah. But it was even in social circles that you were already comfortable in, with family and stuff, if she was there you would act differently. And I did not like that.
And then I think the other thing that I really remember is I remember, towards the end you were complaining about your friends complaining about... I don't know exactly what it was. But to me, what your friends were saying made sense. And I was a little bit worried about the fact that you were being so defensive of the person you were dating. I mean, I didn't have the whole story, but it didn't settle right for me. And those were the two big things that were red flags to me.
Emily: Yeah. And I think that's definitely... If you're in a situation like that and your friends are concerned about something, they're not concerned for no reason. There's a difference between having a friend that's like, "I don't like your boyfriend 'cause he plays hockey." It's one thing to have a friend that's critical of trivial things, but there's a big difference between your friends who... I mean my friends who I had lived with and were my best friends that I had been close with for four years who were showing concern. And that's something that I just didn't respond to well, but they were right.
Sarah: Yeah. And I think you don't have to listen to every single person because, I don't know, maybe someone is trying to sabotage your relationship. I doubt it, but not everyone has the best of intentions. But if you look at the people closest to you, especially the people who you have known longer than the person you're in a relationship with, 'cause it's very unlikely that you're not going to have someone who knew you before you started dating this person. So you have to trust them. And that could be hard, especially when you're in it so deep that you don't see all of the issues. But especially if I brought an issue to one of my friends... I'm so non-confrontational, if I brought an issue to them it's a problem.
Kayla: Well yeah, if you brought something to me about a relationship I'm in, that would be taken extremely seriously. About like, "Hey, I don't think this person is being good." You coming to me and saying that would mean something is truly quite wrong.
Sarah: Yeah. So I think definitely look at who it's coming from. And you can take it with a grain of salt, 'cause obviously no one's going to be in your relationship other than you and the person or people you're in a relationship with. But it is important to have trusted people, 'cause you should always still have your own friends. And that's something that I think is an issue with a lot of relationships, is people get into a relationship and they just ditch all of their old friends.
Kayla: Well, and I think that's one of the ways that usually the abuser gains more power is they purposely isolate the person from their friends so that they have no outside resources to go to.
Sarah: Yeah. Well, looking at the little link that I've was talking about, under unhealthy it says, "Only spending time with your partner, your partner's community is the only one you socialize in." And that's for unhealthy. That's not abusive, that's just unhealthy. And then abusive is, "Isolates other partner. One partner controls where the other goes and who they talk to." And they isolate their partner from family and friends.
Kayla: Yes. I've watched that before, that's not cute. I would say just adding on with taking things with the grain of salt, something that was interesting that I was told by my therapist was thinking about the other models that the people giving you advice or giving you thoughts in your relationship have for relationships. So she was saying, the people you know in your life may have grown up with their parents exhibiting a certain kind of love or having a certain kind of relationship, and that's maybe why they think a certain thing about your relationship.
Sarah: Or maybe they saw similar red flags in their own life and they're recognizing them again.
Kayla: So yeah, thinking about how someone's experience or how their ideal model of a relationship is, or their model of a bad relationship, I think is something interesting to think about. 'Cause I think we all kind of assume that we all have the same model of how a relationship should go, and we just don't.
Sarah: But we don't, yeah.
Emily: Yeah. And I think, obviously this isn't something that you know in advance, and this is something I figured out in retrospect, is that the friends and the people that were showing concern and were worried that I said nasty things to, and I treated poorly and just did things that I should never have done, were there to support me when the relationship ended. Even though they didn't have to be, but they were. And they're still my best friends. And I couldn't ask for anything more.
Kayla: Oh.
Emily: Sorry.
Sarah: Emotions?
Kayla: My feelings.
Sarah: From a Costello? Get out.
Kayla: Never.
Emily: It's 'cause the people I'm talking about aren't in the room.
Sarah: That's totally fair. Valid.
Emily: Such a Costello.
Sarah: Are you crying?
Kayla: A little well it's very nice.
Emily: Yeah. I think only one of them listens to this podcast, and they only listen sometimes, so...
Sarah: But if they see that you're on it they'll probably listen.
Emily: Yeah, they probably will.
Kayla: Ha ha, now they'll know you like them.
Emily: Yeah they do, unfortunately. But they were still my true friends no matter what was happening. And so you can't predict that behavior from people, but me in retrospect, they were right all along.
Kayla: Would you say, Sarah... I mean, I think it's a little different, but would you say from watching someone go through an unhealthy and abusive relationship, has that affected how you think about your relationships to other people?
Sarah: I don't know. I think it's interesting just because I don't have romantic relationships, so I don't have that same... It's not exactly parallel, but I think it does make me a little bit more thoughtful when I'm looking at my relationships, but also the relationships of other people around me. I feel like I'm more aware and I feel like I'm more likely to notice a red flag or notice something that just doesn't settle right.
And I think... It hasn't really happened, but I think I would be a little bit more likely to notice if something were going wrong in one of my own relationships. Obviously it's always harder from the inside, but I hope that I would be better at catching it, or I would at least be more open to listening to people when they say, "Here's a red flag." Like Emily, if you were like, "There's a red flag here," I'd be like, "Oh no. She knows."
Kayla: She knows. Yeah. So I watched an emotionally abusive relationship very closely for several years when I was in high school. And I mean, that was obviously a very formative time in my life, too, and it was a situation I was very close to. And I mean, I do have romantic relationships, but for me it affected me immensely. And it was something that affected how I deal with my romantic relationships and what I think about other people. So it's just interesting that, as someone that wasn't even in it and was separated from it, that I still like... There was still a lot going on for me.
Sarah: I mean, I can even see how that has impacted you, just in talking to you about relationships and things. I can see that.
Kayla: Yeah. Trauma.
Sarah: Yeah. But I guess, Emily, do you have any pieces of advice for anyone who... I guess this is two questions. Do you have any pieces of advice for anyone who might be in an unhealthy or abusive relationship and recognizing that? And then also, as someone who's been in a relationship that was not the most healthy, what was the best thing that others did to help you realize and help you get out of it?
Emily: I'm going to answer the second one first. I honestly think that I wouldn't have been able to leave the relationship if someone had dragged me or told me. I needed to get to a point where I was like, "I'm done." And so I'm not entirely sure if things that other people said to me were really the turning point. I heard them and they were stored in my brain space, but I didn't really hear them.
Sarah: Right, and sometimes that makes you even more resistant.
Kayla: I think when I was watching one happen, we even... People from the outside were even giving advice of like, "Don't push them too hard." You don't want to drive them away and they need to come to terms with it themselves. You can't. At some point you need to stop pushing because it's going to make it worse.
Sarah: As difficult as it is to watch this, you have to let this person do it themselves.
Kayla: You have to let them do it themselves, 'cause if they don't... And if your mom had told you you're... And you're in college now so it wouldn't really work, but if your mom had been like, "You're forbidden from seeing this person," that would've made it worse 'cause then now you resent your mom. So it's hard to forcibly remove someone, really.
Emily: Yeah. So that's not really a good answer, but...
Sarah: Well, I guess what's the best thing that a person can do in a situation if they think someone close to them is in an abusive relationship?
Emily: Just show your support for that person and just make your presence known of like, "Hey, I'm always here for you. If you ever want to talk or go somewhere." Just making sure that you see that someone is supporting you, even if they're maybe disagreeing with the choices you're making. Because knowing that you have those strong supports in your life is what makes it possible to leave.
Sarah: Yeah. And once you finally come to terms with the fact that maybe you do need to ask for help, you know who you can ask for help.
Emily: Right. And so that was my answer to the first question of like, what advice, would be to never underestimate what people who support you are willing to do for you.
Sarah: Well, 'cause I've even had a situation where someone I was friends with in high school got into a relationship, and that person did the thing where they just ditched the rest of their friends. And I remember at one point they thought that that relationship was over. And so they called one of my other friends, who was their closest friend when I was in high school, and they were like, "Help me. We broke up. I don't know what to do." Turns out that they didn't break up, but...
Kayla: That was a weird situation.
Sarah: It was a really weird situation. But the friend who they called was like, "Okay, what do you need?" And it was kind of a getting over your pride situation. It hurts that you ditched me, but they were willing to show up. And then the original person was like, "Actually we didn't break up." And they were like, "Are you fucking kidding me?" And I don't know if they would do that again, because there's been a false...
Kayla: They cried wolf.
Sarah: They cried wolf. But even though it had been a number of years and they hadn't really talked, that person was willing to help them. And I feel like there are a lot of people who I would be willing to help in that situation, just thinking of people in my own life.
Emily: Yeah. And I think for me, I had to swallow my pride and ask people to do things that I never in 1000 years would've ever wanted or asked them to do. I.e. you and my mom. But just realizing that those people do love you and they care about you, and that it's not a burden for you to ask for help.
Kayla: That's such a big one.
Sarah: Well cause when you... Go ahead.
Kayla: Well I think especially for people with mental health issues in relationships, I know something I struggle with in relationships a lot is feeling like a burden because I have mental health issues. So I think that's a really big thing of knowing that it's okay to ask and that that person's not going to be like, "Oh my God, they're asking me for help." You know?
Sarah: Yeah. Well when you asked things of me I was like, "Oh, that's terrifying. Yeah, I'll be there." I was like, this is not something that I would want to do in any other situation. But this is an unsafe situation for you and you need help, so I'm going to be that help. I didn't think twice about doing it once I understood what was going on.
Emily: And I think one of the hardest things for me in that whole situation was realizing that I was putting you in a situation where you were physically at risk also. And that was something that, I think as the older sister, felt very protective and didn't want you to be in that situation. But you were my sister so you were going to help me.
Sarah: Yeah. I wasn't going to just say no, like...
Kayla: "I'm not feeling it today, thank you."
Sarah: Yeah. But...
Emily: We just said, "Yeah," exactly the same at the same time.
Sarah: We're sisters.
Emily: But it was something where I was like, it's okay to ask for that.
Sarah: Mom's going to be so happy when she hears this episode.
Emily: Mom's going to love this episode.
Sarah: She's going to cry.
Emily: She will.
Kayla: I'm almost crying right now.
Emily: She'll probably text us.
Kayla: She's going to go insane.
Emily: She'll probably make dad listen to it too.
Sarah: Probably.
Emily: And he'll be like, "Okay."
Kayla: Your dad is the only one of your family that hasn't been on yet.
Emily: He's a man of few words.
Kayla: My mom desperately wants to be on, but I don't know what she would talk about. She's also kind of quiet and shy, kind of.
Sarah: Also kind of not.
Kayla: She's not one that I would think would be like, "I want to be on the podcast." You know?
Sarah: I think she's just jealous of Julie.
Kayla: I think she's jealous of Julie. But...
Emily: Well we can have my dad and your mom cohost and see what happens.
Kayla: Yes, get rid of me and Sarah. It's just your dad and my mom.
Sarah: Jack and Sandy.
Kayla: Wow. That would be iconic. I've had no family members on, and you've had everyone. And we've had Miranda's mom. We haven't had anyone from my family.
Sarah: Amazing. I guess, is there anything else you want to add about unhealthy queer relationships, unhealthy relationships in general? Any parting words you would like to impart on our listeners?
Emily: I think it's very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very scary to make the jump to leave. But that's not as scary as what could happen if you stay.
Sarah: Yeah.
Emily: So sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and just go, which I don't understand the phrase bite the bullet. Does that mean someone shoots you and you catch the bullet in your mouth? I don't understand that. But anyway...
Sarah: That's kind of what I always imagined...
Emily: Anyway, sometimes you just have to...
Sarah: Is biting the bullet something you would do if someone is cutting your leg off without anesthetic and you're like, "I need to bite a bullet so that-"
Kayla: Oh, maybe that. Maybe that is it.
Sarah: "So that I don't scream and die."
Kayla: Oh, she's Googling it.
Emily: Yeah, I'm looking it up.
Sarah: What's the etymology of bite the bullet?
Kayla: What's the other one that I... There's some one about a nail. What's the saying?
Sarah: Hit the nail on the head?
Kayla: No, it's a different one about a nail. Dead as a door... No.
Sarah: Dead as a doornail?
Kayla: No, that's a doorknob.
Sarah: No, it's a doornail. It's dead as a doornail. I don't understand that one.
Kayla: It makes me think of the three little pigs.
Emily: Oh, it's about biting like a bullet when you're... Like, biting on something when you're in pain.
Sarah: I was right.
Kayla: You were right. Sometimes you just need to bite something while your leg gets cut off and just leave.
Sarah: Yes. Yeah. I think that's valid. And unhealthy and abusive relationships can happen in any type of relationship. It can be a familial relationship, it can be a romantic-slash-sexual relationship. It can be a friendship. It can be a lot of different things. It can be straight, it can be queer, it can be polyamorous. It can be a lot of different things.
Emily: And I'm only one person, and this is only my experience, so I can't speak to the experiences of other people. And I know a lot of other queer people have a lot of very different experiences from me, but...
Sarah: Yeah. And we're not saying that you should be afraid of every relationship, but I think it's...
Kayla: Don't be me.
Emily: I'm in a very happy relationship now. Believe me kids, you can get over it.
Sarah: Yeah. There's hope.
Emily: There's hope, y'all.
Kayla: She seems quite lovely.
Emily: She is.
Sarah: So I think.
Emily: Hi.
Kayla: Is she listening?
Emily: Hi. She'll probably listen to this one 'cause I'm in it.
Kayla: Hi.
Sarah: Hi. Hope you find your dad. Eastern Australian-
Emily: No, this is the narwhal from Elf, not the turtles.
Kayla: Get it together, Sarah.
Sarah: No, I know. But it makes me think about it.
Emily: Bye buddy. Hope you find your dad.
Sarah: I'm glad that we gave everyone that.
Kayla: They needed to know.
Sarah: Also you were even closer to the mic, so they're going to get such good quality.
Kayla: Loud as she's been all episode.
Sarah: But yeah, we're not saying that you should be afraid of every relationship, but I think it is important to be able to look at your relationships as objectively as you can. And sometimes the emotions can run very high and it can be difficult to do that, but for your own health and safety and sanity, it's something that you should probably do every once in a while.
Emily: Yeah. And take your time.
Sarah: Yeah. Do what you need to do when you think it is the right time to do it.
Emily: Correct.
Sarah: And don't be afraid to ask for help.
Emily: Correct.
Sarah: And that's the tea. All right. What's our poll for this week?
Kayla: I've been thinking about that for the past couple minutes and truly I've got nothing.
Sarah: I also have nothing.
Kayla: Do you have anything?
Sarah: Or we could do an open-ended question where it's like, "Do you know of any resources?"
Emily: Yeah, that's a good one. So people can collect them. I like that.
Sarah: Yeah. So we're going to have another open-ended poll. Remember when we didn't used to do a lot of open-ended polls?
Kayla: I think they're good, and they get more numbers.
Sarah: Oh my God, Kayla.
Kayla: They do. People love the open-ended polls.
Sarah: Fair. Okay. Yeah. So we're going to have an open-ended poll. We're going to be posting some resources that Emily found. We might look for a couple more ourselves, but if any of you out there know of additional resources for unhealthy and abusive relationships, especially for queer communities, for the ace community, we would like to see them. Maybe we could put them on our website.
Kayla: I was thinking about that 'cause we're going to have a resource area.
Sarah: Yeah, that'd be a good thing to have.
Kayla: So maybe that could be part of it.
Sarah: Plugging our website.
Kayla: Well none of it is there yet. I'm busy. I have a paper to go write after this.
Sarah: Okay, yeah. Cool. What's your beef of the week, Emily?
Emily: Oh, I forgot I was going to have to do this.
Sarah: Yeah. I'm never prepared.
Kayla: I'm never prepared.
Emily: My beef of the week is that my sister's freaking car got towed and it took me three hours to find it.
Sarah: And $300.
Kayla: How could you not find it?
Emily: Oh, it's a story that's too long for this podcast. I had to call the lady at the towing company four times. I went in person. I had to call the police for our...
Kayla: The police?
Emily: Just the non-emergency number, not the real number.
Kayla: Oh, okay.
Emily: To see if they had it. They didn't have it. Then I had to call the county. Then I had to call the county again. And then I had to pay $317 to get it back.
Kayla: That's not fun.
Emily: Yeah. That's my beef of the week. But I got a-
Kayla: That's a good one.
Sarah: Her sister being me. I'm her only sister. It was my car.
Emily: It was her car.
Kayla: I love that. What's my beef of the week? My beef of the week is that I had to ride on five planes this break.
Sarah: Oh my God, it's so hard.
Kayla: I know that's a privilege. But also I used to really like flying 'cause I didn't do it often, so I was like, "Ooh, have fun. I like the airport and I get to go in a plane and free movies." But then I did it way too many times and I think I ruined it for myself, which is sad 'cause I used to like it.
Sarah: Yeah. I used to be really good about beef of the weeks because I would write them down throughout the week and I don't-
Kayla: Seems like kind of a negative thing to do.
Sarah: No, it wasn't like I would actively think about it, but something would happen and I would be like, "Hah, I want to remember this."
Emily: Oh, can I give another one for you?
Sarah: Yeah, sure.
Emily: So I was given an assignment in one of my classes that we have to fill out, like type on the document as our response. Except they gave us a PDF. Even if you convert it to a Word document the formatting's going to get all weird.
Kayla: Can you edit it?
Emily: No.
Kayla: Is it not editable?
Emily: No. So I'm having to retype it all, which is stupid.
Kayla: That's bothersome.
Sarah: Wow.
Kayla: That is truly some of the worst. That's a bad one.
Sarah: I have a pretty minor beef of the week, and that is mud. Just mud. Walking in it, playing sports in it, difficult. Mud. Anti-mud.
Emily: Except sometimes it's useful for making houses.
Kayla: I saw a really sad story about how people in... Oh, I'm bad. Some Third World country are resorting to eating mud.
Sarah: Oh dear.
Emily: That was in Haiti, I believe.
Kayla: So that's not good.
Sarah: Yikes.
Kayla: They were just cooking little mud pancakes, and I was like, "That is very sad."
Sarah: It was very sad.
Emily: It might not be Haiti, don't quote me on that. I'm sorry that I am not...
Sarah: Last week I mixed up Vietnam and Singapore.
Kayla: I thought it was an African country, but truly who knows.
Sarah: Oh, quick update on The Bachelor.
Kayla: Oh my God. We know all of you hate it.
Sarah: Yeah, we know all of you hate it.
Kayla: We saw.
Sarah: We're still updating you.
Kayla: We've seen you.
Sarah: Colton dumped the other two girls. He's with Cassie now, but she-
Kayla: Cassie doesn't seem as invested as he is.
Sarah: He told her, "I dumped the other girls," and apparently she was like, "Well..." Her face was the face of, "Fuck, he wasn't supposed to do that."
Kayla: Yeah. But I didn't watch... I'm busy. Which I was very sad about 'cause I wanted to watch these episodes, but apparently it was highly alluded to that he finally lost his virginity, even though he wasn't a virgin.
Sarah: I don't care. Yeah. But you can find that poll. Tell us more about your hatred for The Bachelor, or defend The Bachelor to our many followers who hate The Bachelor. Or tell us about your beef of the week at our Twitter @soundsfakepod. We also have a website, soundsfakepod.com. All of our social media is soundsfakepod. Our email address is soundsfakepod@gmail.com if you want to email us. If you have been in a situation like this or you've been privy to one and you feel comfortable sending us an experience, whether or not you want us to share it with our listeners, that can be up to you. But I can-
Kayla: If you just want an ear.
Sarah: Yeah.
Kayla: Or an eye.
Sarah: If you'd like to email us or DM us or whatever about that.
Kayla: What about anything else?
Sarah: What about cows?
Kayla: We get a lot of good messages about cows.
Sarah: We love cows.
Emily: I have a question, Kayla.
Kayla: Yeah?
Emily: Do you eat beef?
Kayla: I do eat beef.
Emily: That is not taking good care of a cow. That is a... No more cow.
Sarah: I don't eat beef.
Kayla: I like to think of it that... I have nothing on that.
Sarah: So I am the superior cow carer.
Emily: I'm thinking of stopping to eat beef because baby cows are so cute.
Kayla: I would like to not eat beef 'cause I know it's unhealthier for you and I don't cook it-
Sarah: It's really bad for the environment, too.
Kayla: I know. And I only eat it when I eat out. I only cook chicken for myself. I'll only ever cook white meat for myself. So I don't eat it often, but I do like a burger.
Sarah: I was just reading about how bad cows are for the environment, and not just cows but...
Emily: It's their toots.
Kayla: It's their toots.
Sarah: And it's the way we treat them, and it's the way we...
Kayla: We need to attach a filter to their buttholes to filter their toots. Thoughts?
Sarah: Cow butthole filters. All right.
Kayla: Bilters. Cow bilters.
Sarah: We also have a Patreon.
Kayla: You want to give us money to listen to more of this.
Sarah: To create the bilter.
Kayla: Ooh. We should make a GoFundMe for the bilter.
Sarah: Jesus Christ no. Oh boy.
Emily: Wouldn't it be an anus filter?
Kayla: But it's a butthole filter, so it's a bilter. You want it to be an...
Sarah: You want a more technical term?
Kayla: Anilter? Anus filter.
Sarah: Anal.
Kayla: Anilter.
Sarah: Anilter.
Kayla: But that could just make it sound like it's a nilter.
Sarah: Analter.
Kayla: Oh, that's a good one. We'll workshop it. We'll get back to you. If you have any ideas, let us know.
Sarah: Good. All right. Well, if for some reason after hearing that you want to give us money you can donate to our Patreon or to our PayPal. Our $2 patrons are Keith McBlain, Roxanne, Alice is in space, Amy, Austin Siegel, Anonymous, Quinn Pollack. And our new one, Nathan Dennison.
Kayla: Who I think bought a patronage in the middle of the night.
Sarah: It was 3:00 AM.
Kayla: As an impulse purchase.
Sarah: And he tweeted about it.
Kayla: And then he thought it was... He had a dream.
Sarah: He was once on our pod.
Kayla: He was once on our pod.
Emily: Don't you know him?
Sarah: Yeah. We know him.
Emily: Oh, okay.
Kayla: Yeah. He was on our pod moons ago.
Sarah: Many, many moons ago. A long time ago.
Kayla: Our only male guest.
Sarah: Our only male guest. So he's a $2 patron, so he doesn't get to promote anything. But you know what, I'll do it for him this week. Listen to the episode that he's on.
Kayla: That's really just promoting us.
Sarah: Yeah. Our $5 patrons are Jennifer Smart, Asritha Vinnakota, Austin Le, Drew Finney Perry Fiero, and my Aunt Jeanie.
Kayla: Hi Aunt Jeanie.
Emily: Oh, Aunt Jeanie.
Sarah: Yeah.
Emily: She's a great aunt.
Kayla: I saw Aunt Jeanie's Instagram, she followed us. It's like Band Mom something. I was like, yes.
Sarah: She's a hardcore band mom
Kayla: I love that.
Sarah: Our $10 patrons are Kevin and Tessa, who can be found on Twitter @dirtyunclekevin and @tessa_m_k. Sarah Jones, who is Eternaloli. I did it. I did it. On all social media. And Arkness, who would like to promote the Trevor Project.
We also have our $15 patrons. Wow, this is getting tiring. Nathaniel White, who can be found at nathanieljwhitedesigns.com, and our anonymous $15 patron.
Emily: Do I get to promote something?
Sarah: Yeah, you can. What would you like to promote?
Emily: This is the same as I promoted last time, except I am in much more debt than I was the last time I was on the pod. So if you'd have any checks you'd like to send me, I am a graduate student, you can DM them on Twitter and they will give you an appropriate address. I accept-
Sarah: She's got a Venmo.
Emily: I do have a Venmo. I accept any amount of money.
Kayla: We should make a Sounds Fake Venmo.
Emily: Or if you'd like to just send a check directly to the US Department of Education on my behalf? Great. That's all.
Sarah: Good. Do you want to promote any of your social media or nah.
Emily: No, 'cause I deleted all my social media off my phone 'cause they were becoming a distraction.
Sarah: Okay.
Kayla: How healthy of you.
Emily: Yeah. Well now I just read The New York Times as a distraction.
Kayla: That sounds sad.
Sarah: But it's good 'cause you're informing yourself.
Kayla: It's good but-
Emily: I like to stay informed.
Kayla: Yeah. The news is always so sad.
Sarah: Like, I'm way more informed these days now that I've subscribed to some newsletters. I read them every day.
Kayla: A newsletter, like a neighborhood newsletter?
Sarah: No. Well, I subscribe-
Kayla: The Skim.
Sarah: I subscribe to the Crooked Media What A Day newsletter, which is all of the political news from that day. And then I subscribe to the Hollywood Reporter and Variety, so I get all the Hollywood news.
Kayla: You're so cool.
Sarah: It's relevant to me. Listen, I don't know what you want. My beef of the week is Lori Loughlin.
Kayla: Yeah, I thought you were going to say that. And then I forgot about it. And then...
Sarah: And what's her face? That other woman?
Emily: Felicity something?
Kayla: Felicity Huffman?
Sarah: Yeah. As if their kids weren't already privileged enough, didn't already have enough of an advantage. If you don't know what I'm talking about, look it up. I'm mad. Okay. That's all.
Emily, thank you for being on the pod. Thank you to our listeners for listening. Tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.
Kayla: And until then, take good care of your cows.
Emily: Except Kayla eats them.
Sarah: Don't eat beef.
Kayla: I like the burger. Don't shame me.
Sarah: It's also not good that... The way we treat cows in terms of getting milk from cows is not good.
Kayla: Yeah. How about that, Sarah? You are the biggest lover of milk.
Sarah: But it's not as bad as killing them for eating purposes.
Kayla: Still not good. So really neither of us take good care of cows.
Sarah: Please do better than us. Got to go, bye.