Hey what's up hello! In honor of Refusing Compulsory Sexuality: A Black Asexual Lens on Our Sex-Obsessed Culture by Sherronda J. Brown coming out on September 13th, we're having a little book club!
Episode Transcript: www.soundsfakepod.com/transcripts/refusing-compulsory-sexuality-by-sherronda-j-brown
Order Refusing Compulsory Sexuality: https://bookshop.org/a/101336/9781623177102
Donate: patreon.com/soundsfakepod
Follow: @soundsfakepod
Join: https://discord.gg/W7VBHMt
Buy our book: www.soundsfakepod.com/book
Hey what's up hello! In honor of Refusing Compulsory Sexuality: A Black Asexual Lens on Our Sex-Obsessed Culture by Sherronda J. Brown coming out on September 13th, we're having a little book club!
Episode Transcript: www.soundsfakepod.com/transcripts/refusing-compulsory-sexuality-by-sherronda-j-brown
Order Refusing Compulsory Sexuality: https://bookshop.org/a/101336/9781623177102
Donate: patreon.com/soundsfakepod
Follow: @soundsfakepod
Join: https://discord.gg/W7VBHMt
Buy our book: www.soundsfakepod.com/book
(00:00)
SARAH: Hey what's up hello, welcome to Sounds Fake but Okay, a podcast where an aroace girl, I'm Sarah that's me
KAYLA: And a bi demisexual girl, that's me Kayla
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don't understand
KAYLA: On today's episode: compulsory sexuality
SARAH AND KAYLA: Sounds fake, but okay
(theme music plays)
SARAH: Welcome back to the pod!
KAYLA: Hello!
SARAH: I hope all of our Americans had a good long weekend last week
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: I hope the rest of you had a good regular weekend unless you also had a long weekend
KAYLA: Mhm
SARAH: We're just going to move on. Do we have any housekeeping?
KAYLA: Buy our book
SARAH: Buy our book. Yep. Soundsfakepod.com/book
KAYLA: It is now available at a lot of Indie stores, so if you go to indiebound is it .org?
SARAH: Just go to indiebound. You can also go to bookshop.org
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: I think that's also one that works
KAYLA: But if you go to indiebound you can put in your zip code and it'll show you Indie stores near you that are offering pre-order on their online websites
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: And you can buy it from there so you can support your local bookstores. Our bookshop.org donates money to Indie bookstores
SARAH: Yes. And if you're like I very specifically want to support Sarah and Kayla's favorite bookstore, you should get it from Literati Book Store in Ann Arbor, Michigan
KAYLA: Yes. True. That is our favorite bookstore.
SARAH: Exciting
KAYLA: Yeah, so true.
SARAH: Alright great. Kayla, what are we talking about this week?
KAYLA: This week we're talking about the first ace book that's coming out in this...
SARAH: Ace book season?
KAYLA: Yeah, in this ace book season, which is Refusing Compulsory Sexuality, a Black asexual lens on our sex-obsessed culture by Sherronda J. Brown
SARAH: Woo! We love Sherronda in this house
KAYLA: The book comes out on the 13th
SARAH: September 13th!
KAYLA: But you could still pre-order it right now so that it's ready for you
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: Right when it comes out
SARAH: We have it. It's very nice, it's a very nice book
KAYLA: It is. The cover's very pretty. It's good stuff.
SARAH: Very excellent. So originally Sherronda's people reached out to us at their publisher. The original intention was to have Sherronda on the pod but then their schedule changed and their availability changed and it became no longer possible, but we still really wanted to talk about this book, so we're going to do it anyway
KAYLA: Yeah. We're going to be doing episodes on all the ace books coming out this season, so yeah. It's a very good book so we obviously didn't want to not cover it just because Sherronda was busy
SARAH: Yeah and their publisher still said "hey we'll send it to you, go ahead. Talk about it. Free advertisement" and we said yep.
KAYLA: True. We're also working with Sherronda's publisher to do a little giveaway
SARAH: Yes we are
KAYLA: So if you head over to our Instagram, we're giving away 5 copies of Sherronda's book
SARAH: Five! One, two, three, four, five!
KAYLA: Five! So yeah head over to our Instagram and you can see how to apply to win. International and US residents are... what's the word? Eligible
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: So anyone could get one
SARAH: Yes. It's a really good book. I'm super excited that we're able to give five away. So get on that folks. Instagram @soundsfakepod for eligibility requirements
KAYLA: Yeah we'll probably run it for like a week, so you have a week to enter, but you might as well just do it now before you forget
SARAH: Yeah because if you're like me you're going to forget
KAYLA: So true.
SARAH: Okay, so this book. Kayla and I have both read it. Let's discuss. This is going to be like a little book club.
KAYLA: Yeah this really is. This is like us doing a book report for you. We don't want to spoil too much. We're going to try not to read too many quotes from the book because it's not out yet, obviously
SARAH: Yeah I want to be clear that listening to this episode is not a substitute for reading the book. I really would recommend reading the book. There is so much in the book that we could not possibly get to in this episode
(05:00)
SARAH: And things that me and Kayla just can't speak to nearly as well or at all, but nearly as well as Sherronda can. So honestly this book is really good. Just get the book. Just get it.
KAYLA: Yeah it's definitely, compared to the one other comparison we really have of recent ace books, compared to Ace by Angela Chen, it is
SARAH: (laughing) Mhm. I thought you were going to say our own book
KAYLA: Yeah, our own. No. It is slightly I would say denser than Ace, more research and academia based than Ace by Angela Chen
SARAH: It takes a more traditionally academic approach.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Than Ace does, than our book does
KAYLA: So definitely be ready for it not to be a light or quick read. It's definitely something you want to sit and absorb and really think about as you read
SARAH: Mhm. It would be really good for queer studies and feminist studies classes
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: Just saying, let's get those required readings in for Sherronda
KAYLA: Yeah. Honestly a thought that I had so often while reading this was stuff I learned in this book about Black history specifically and how it relates to gender, I was like "why was this not covered in my women's studies and gender classes". This seems like the basics I should have been learning
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: Like I should not have been learning it from this book.
SARAH: It's great that you did but you should've learned it before then
KAYLA: Yes, which is obviously partly my fault for not doing reading on my own but nevertheless
SARAH: Yeah. Kayla, as you know, I am very anti book abuse. Book abuse being anything that harms the perfect, perfect pages of the book. But this reminded me so much of college reading this, in a good way not in a bad way, that I actually did mark it up and I underlined stuff. And I told Kayla this and she was like "wow this is shocking"
KAYLA: And it honestly is. Sarah is very passionate about the care of her books so it was very surprising
SARAH: Yeah but it felt, in the best way possible like I was doing reading for an interesting class in school
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: So I was like "I got to mark this down"
KAYLA: Yes. I have a lot of little tabs in mine from parts that I found particularly interesting. So, as the title states, the book is about compulsory sexuality from a Black, asexual lens. So just to kind of give my best overview of what the book covers, it is really Sherronda looking at compulsory sexuality, obviously, which is I feel like kind of a sister to amatonormativity and allonormativity
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: Which we talked about a couple weeks ago
SARAH: Yeah, they're all connected.
KAYLA: Yeah. It's basically the idea that everyone is having sex and that it is normal and a human need that it is just kind of a given
SARAH: And that it's what you're supposed to do
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Not just that it's a given but if you don't do it you're doing something wrong
KAYLA: Yeah. So throughout the book Sherronda kind of goes through a lot of different topics about desire, the history of the word virginity, about medical history, gender, productivity and capitalism, through both an asexual and Black lens, and looking at how those topics kind of impact both ace and Black people
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: Like people who are both Black and ace specifically
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: It talks a lot about broad structural powers, like white supremacy or capitalism. Like broad societal things and talking about how those were built through anti-Blackness
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: And how those obviously hurt Black people, but how in parallel, it's having a lot of very similar effects on ace people
SARAH: Yeah it really struck me, especially when I was reading the introduction of the book, about how everything Sherronda was talking about about compulsory sexuality and this idea of how a heteronormative society benefits from remaining a heteronormative society, which is something we talk about in our book as well. It really struck me, and Sherronda laid it out in a really clear and concise way and brought all the receipts, that these same ideas that we think about as aspec issues and compulsory fill in the blank, it maps so clearly onto whiteness and white hegemony. How would you describe hegemony for the kids?
KAYLA: Hm. What is the definition of hegemony?
(10:00)
SARAH: I was like "wait that's not the most accessible word"
KAYLA: Like I know what it means in my heart, but I don't actually know what it means
SARAH: Leadership or dominance especially by one country or social group over others. Sometimes it's pronounced hegemony (said he-GE-money) depending on who you ask.
KAYLA: Sure
SARAH: Or maybe that was just my professor
KAYLA: Mm.
SARAH: But these same ideas that effect aspecs they map so clearly and cleanly onto white hegemony, and as a white aspec, it's not something that I often think about because I'm not forced to confront my whiteness on a day to day basis in the same way that I'm forced to confront my aroaceness in the same way that Black people or other people of color are forced to confront their "otherness" compared to what the social norm is. And it just made me think it's so easy to map one onto the other and it's so clear to see how they're so inextricably intertwined, but we just don't often talk about them that way.
KAYLA: Yeah 100%. I think the book did a really good job of laying out exactly why it is so difficult to be a Black ace person.
SARAH: Mhm.
KAYLA: Obviously it's easy to just know that as a fact.
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: Being a Black person is harder than being a white person, obviously, but to see it laid out so clearly of "here is why. Here are the structures in place that make that a fact"
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: It just makes it really easy to understand and digest
SARAH: Yeah, through explicit connections and distinct connections between this is the discrimination that asexuals face, this is the racism and discrimination that Black folks face, and this is the way that those things compound together for Black aces and Black aspecs.
KAYLA: Yeah I think it really gets the idea of kind of double jeopardy, which is the idea of having two minority identities and how those kind of compound each other
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: it gets all that really clearly. There's a lot of – the book in general talks more about female, or assigned female at birth, or assumed female aspecs
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: And Black aspecs and it talks a lot about the dichotomy of the oversexualized Black woman and then being asexual, and how that's viewed as an impossibility
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: Like, how could a Black woman be asexual if they're supposed to be this hypersexualized person?
SARAH: Yeah, the Jezebel
KAYLA: Right
SARAH: Stereotype yeah
KAYLA: So there's a lot of discussion on the interactions between gender, the interactions between just the stereotypical Black person and how it can make being a Black asexual person seem impossible to both white people or to other Black people that have kind of been conditioned to think a certain way as we all have
SARAH: Mhm. Something that was really interesting that Sherronda talks about throughout is this idea that so many sexologists, psychologists, people who study this in the 1800s, a lot of them were German. Why were there so many Germans?
KAYLA: Who's to say?
SARAH: Maybe that's just the best documented. But there was just this kind of overwhelming thought that asexuality and that a lack of this certain attraction is related to an immaturity because you know, kids whatever, before they go through puberty, and it was so strongly connected to this idea of maturity that someone even at one point said that – where was it? Freud. Sigmund Freud. Famed motherfucker
KAYLA: Hate that guy.
SARAH: he called – I wrote this down because I was so shook. He called clitoral orgasms immature despite the fact that 75% of people with vaginas can't orgasm without that
KAYLA: Freud really was a motherfucker
SARAH: (laughing) He really was a motherfucker. And there were just so many things sprinkled throughout about asexuality is immature, and to reach maturity, to reach adulthood, to be a proper adult, you need to have this attraction and these experiences.
(15:00)
SARAH: There was an interesting point about how not only are Black folks not seen as being able to be asexual because of the hypersexual with the Jezebel stereotype with that sort of thing, but they're also adultified at such a young age and because asexuality is seen by so many as this liminal space on the way to adulthood, people are like "oh that doesn't comport with my understanding of Blackness" and that was such an interesting thing that I just hadn't connected those dots before.
KAYLA: yeah. That whole chapter, there's kind of a chapter that I want to talk about more about just kind of timing and life stages in general
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: And again it was just one of those things where the way Sherronda wrote it and kind of brought in all of this evidence made it so clear to me. The whole book as I was reading I was like "how did I not put this together myself?" Like it's so clear the way that they put it together.
SARAH: Yeah and that's on White ignorance
KAYLA: yeah I mean obviously – yeah. I should not be feigning ignorance like "oh my god why did I not put this together" like obviously
SARAH: But you know the fact that we haven't put it together is representative of the society that we live in and what we are taught to value as white people, so
KAYLA: No true, but also I don't want to take the blame away from myself
SARAH: Oh, certainly.
KAYLA: Reading this whole book just made it so clear to me that I have so much more reading to do
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: But it also got me very excited to do it, so it's very motivational in that way
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: But kind of the discussion of the adultification of asexual women especially, but kind of the childification that's put on asexual – well not asexual people but yes asexual, but Black adults of like "oh they need a white savior, they can't do anything themselves"
SARAH: Mm.
KAYLA: And again, so how complicated it then makes for someone who has both an asexual and Black identity
SARAH: Yeah and something that Sherronda discussed as well was the fact that so many of these things, these expectations around Black folks, around Black aspecs, around aspecs in general are so contradictory and they just don't make sense. And it made me think about how everything is so conflicting because everything is just about maintaining power and control. And depending on the context that might mean over white women, over asexuals, but it also means maintaining power over Black people or any other group and this social view of asexuality changes to fit that narrative. There were times when white women being asexual were like "oh this is the worst thing ever" but in another context it's like "oh well it's okay" and it's just so... clear to me that depending on the context anything changes just to serve white hegemony.
KAYLA: Yeah. There is – I forget what the exact quote is, and it was referenced several times in the book, but I have no idea where it was. There was a quote about how anti-Blackness is just the willingness and the ability to just misunderstand the world, or misinterpret the things going on around you
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: Just for your own benefit just to look at what is around you and decide to be completely delusional, and it's kind of that idea of just changing your mind about what the standards are just to meet whatever you need to do to keep whatever group is in power right now in power
SARAH: Right, and something else that I found interesting and apt was part of the fear of white asexuality specifically is that it comes from the fear of white genocide, of the idea of losing the majority, of if these people aren't bearing white children that's a threat to white supremacy and that is a threat to white hegemony and that's part of the reason why asexuality for some people was so scary, is because they didn't want to lose that power and they felt "okay well if there aren't enough white women making white babies because they don't feel this attraction, because they don't want to be involved in these relationships, that's a problem"
KAYLA: I will tell you what. Along these lines, I think there's a section in the chapter about gender, or maybe in the chapter about productivity, but it kind of talks about that idea of
(20:00)
KAYLA: the fear of white genocide and it talks about reproductive health too
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: Which is obviously very topical right now. It talks about why there is so much government control about having babies and it talks why there is so much anxiety right now the population not you know know being the same and the loss of workers
SARAH: The covid baby boom?
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Or the covid baby bust. There's no baby boom. Sorry.
KAYLA: Just the way Sherronda writes it and brings it all the evidence together makes it all so clear just the idea in the back of your head of like "oh man the government's doing something shady" or "there's a higher power kind of at work"
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: It just makes that so clear
SARAH: It's all about maintaining power and control and everything boils down to that, whether it has to do with compulsory sexuality, whether it has to do with race. Those two things very often have to do with each other, they're very connected, but everything comes down to that connection between power and who has it and who maintains it, and it pisses me off.
KAYLA: Yeah. I should hope so. Oh I remembered I was going to... I was on track to talk about this earlier, but throughout the book Sherronda talks about this concept called pronormativity, which I really want to do a whole episode on because I think it's another normativity..
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: That we can really get into, but it's this idea that – I think the write Elizabeth Freeman maybe coined the word? Or just did a lot of writing on it, but it's the notion that our lives and experiences with them are set to unfold in a particular pattern, and this pattern is one that is determined by the social and cultural mandates of the era in which we live. So the idea of by this age you should be married, at this age you go to school, at this age you have a baby, get your first job, buy a house, whatever, that kind of thing.
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: And it was just so interesting to read about. Obviously you can see how that applies to asexual people or aromantic people like okay, maybe we're less likely to have sex for the first time or at all, or not getting married and stuff. Sherronda also lays out the white supermacy behind pronormativity
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: There was a part where they talk about how the concept of having three meals a day is a European, colonial concept
SARAH: It's just all colonialism. All of it.
KAYLA: had just never crossed my mind, like oh why, that's weird. Like it's not a given that humans eat 3 round meals a day. So it's even granular stuff like that that is just – damn, it really makes you think
SARAH: Yeah. On page 64
KAYLA: Of our copy at least. I don't know if the other copies are different.
SARAH: Of our copy. Sherronda says "traditional (read colonial)" which, that's such a correct way to think about it
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Tradition is just all in western – I mean a lot of this book was very much based in US history
KAYLA: Yeah, definitely
SARAH: And US, the American story of it all, and everything that is "traditional" is colonial
KAYLA: Yeah there's a lot in the book that talks about obviously, slavery, but also the American takeover of what becomes the United States and how a lot of kind of the anxieties around anti-Blackness and also anti-aspec comes from the idea of setting apart the white man from the "savage," which is what historians and doctors were saying back then, which is obviously truly horrendous
SARAH: Yikes
KAYLA: But I think that is where a lot of the compulsory sexuality comes from, is this want to be the higher race so we need to kind of control our sexuality in a specific way that is also very hypocritical in an incredible amount of ways
SARAH: Yeah and so many other cultures, communities that were not white European, they did not necessarily have the same delineations and the same binaries
(25:00)
SARAH: And the same heteronormativity that white Christian Europeans did, but you know, it's colonialism. Those were the people that kind of seized control and enforced these things on all these other peoples, and anything that did not fit their mold was seen as somehow savage or wrong, and that only enforces cisheteronormativity more. Cisheteronormativity is in some ways a white invention
KAYLA: Oh yeah 100%. I mean you think about the concept of a two spirit person
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: From Native people, you can see how white supremacists and colonialists came in and saw that and were like "well since you do that it must be bad because we've decided we're better than you, so we're just going to wipe all of that out and set us back so many years"
SARAH: yeah. Foolish. Foolish.
KAYLA: This is mostly unrelated but I read today that back in the day when they made man plus man relationships illegal
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: In the UK, I think
SARAH: Sodomy?
KAYLA: Yes. They decided to not make women love women relationships illegal because they didn't want to give women ideas. They thought that if they just didn't tell women it was possible to be with another woman that they wouldn't figure it out. And apparently there's parliament transcripts where you can read them being like "no you guys we shouldn't do this because then they'll figure it out"
SARAH: We don't want to suggest it?
KAYLA: This is really related to nothing but I just thought about it because we were talking about the colonials.
SARAH: There was also some interesting facts in there about how studies have shown about how all queer identities, asexuals are most likely to have been offered or forced into conversion therapy.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And how there's a racial split that is distinct. That not only are asexuals more likely, but there is a clear demarcation that Black asexuals and asexuals of color are more likely than white asexuals to be forced into or at least offered conversion therapy. Which is not unsurprising, but it's interesting to see it laid out so clearly
KAYLA: Yeah it's interesting to see it in in the numbers what we can kind of assume is true just based on what's happening around us
SARAH: And the studies also show that asexuals are the most hated of the queers
KAYLA: Yeah that one was wild to me. There was a good amount in the book that was kind of just about public perception of asexuality
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: And those studies were incredibly interesting
SARAH: it's so fascinating to me because I don't often think of aspecs as the most hated because to be hated we have to be known
KAYLA: Yeah, same
SARAH: (laughing) But when we are known, we are hated.
KAYLA: Yeah I didn't think people knew enough to have that much hate, but yeah. Kind of going along with that, there's kind of a whole chapter on the dehumanization of asexuals along with Black people, and there's a lot of historical work discussed there about what it takes for a person to be dehumanized and what it means, socially. It's super interesting.
SARAH: There's two different types of dehumanization. There's the animalization and then there's the robotization
KAYLA: Uh huh
SARAH: And they're distinct from each other and they're used differently
KAYLA: yeah. There's also a lot of really amazing just asexual history in the book
SARAH: There's a whole ass chapter! Oh I love that section
KAYLA: The last chapter is just a timeline. Yeah. If someone ever ... there's like two chapters in this book. There's the history one, and then the whole book kind of just laying out asexuality as a queer identity
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: That if someone ever came up to you and was like "asexual isn't part of the LGBT" you could pull out this book and be like "oh really, because here's all this history and all this evidence"
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: So yeah it's really cool. It goes back centuries, a couple centuries
SARAH: It starts in 1855.
KAYLA: Yeah. Showing the major historical writings and events that include asexuality
SARAH: I said earlier something about how a lot of the people who were contributing to this were German or German speakers and I was like "why". I actually do have a theory of why
(30:00)
KAYLA: Is it a Nazi?
SARAH: No. Why'd you bring them into this?
(laughter)
KAYLA: I don't know, because they did a lot of really horrible medical work.
SARAH: Yeah but I'm talking 1800s.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: (laughing) They did. You are correct.
KAYLA: Sorry
SARAH: And the Aryan race, but personally, this is just opinion, a hypothesis if you will, I think that just goes to show white, Eurocentric histories are first of all just better known and studied, but also I think it could mean the differentiation between the sexualities, and the forced sexual binary, it goes along with the fact that it is a white invention
KAYLA: Yep
SARAH: It's not happening elsewhere or it's not being documented elsewhere because it's not such a big conversation, so when you look through the history that Sherronda lays out which is super interesting and detailed, and I learned so much, and if for no other reason, buy the book for this history section. But there are lots of other reasons to buy the book. It was interesting that in the kind of 1800s section it was mostly Germans and then in the early 1900s it kind of switches to Americans. And I just thought that was interesting. I mean, it is partly because Sherronda is American, that's the bias that we have as well. That's what we're familiar with, but it is interesting that that's where so much of the discourse is happening and it's happening overtly. You could say that's because freedom of speech in the United States, people can have these conversations and people can talk about them and they're documented well, but it's just... people had some thoughts. Some of them were right, some of them were wrong.
KAYLA: I think a lot of them were wrong (laughs)
SARAH: A lot of them were wrong but there was one German woman who several times I was like, you right. I believe her name was Emma. It really does just point out that the term asexual was used in queer circles so much earlier than people think it was
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like I had heard of it being used on occasion in the 60s and 70s
KAYLA: Yeah same
SARAH: But the first mention here, in the United States of referring to people as asexual in the way that we sort of understand it now, obviously it's not totally the same, 1914.
KAYLA: It is wild
SARAH: It's absurd. Magnus Hirschfeld said that they can distinguish among five groups: heterosexuals, homosexuals, bisexuals, apparent asexuals, and automonosexuals.
KAYLA: Well there you go. There we are
SARAH: 1917 another mention
KAYLA: You don't have to give away the entire book
SARAH: Sorry I just found it so... It was mentioned by name so much earlier than I realized
KAYLA: Yep. Another part of the book I liked, I think it was the very last chapter, was just quotes from Black asexuals
SARAH: yes that was also very good
KAYLA: Just about their experiences as Black aspecs, which I really love. Our book, Eris Young's book, which we'll be talking about in a couple weeks, and Sherronda's books all have these quotes from asexual people. I really like that we all kind of went in that direction
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: It was just very interesting to get perspectives, like more perspectives instead of just Sherronda's
SARAH: From a diversity of
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Black aspec voices because as, you know, Sherronda talks about in this book, there is little Black aspec representation and of that representation, it tends to be a couple people, and so you hear these same perspectives, and those perspectives are great and they're helpful and wonderful to hear from, but it's also good to just hear more.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And hear about other people's experiences so it was great to just read about so many people's experience. Some of the names I recognized, some of them I didn't
KAYLA: Yeah. There's also, throughout the book, some mini interviews or just contributions
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: From other Black aspec historians or researchers or sexologists and stuff like that, and it was really cool that that was included too
SARAH: Yeah. There's also a whole section that talks about the assumption when people claim that historical figures, often writers... Sherronda talks specifically about Octavia Butler and Langston Hughes as historical figures who were
(35:00)
SARAH: kind of obfuscated around their sexuality, they never clarified what they were or weren't, so as a result people assumed they were gay or in the case of Octavia Butler, gay as in lesbian, and how that's often just not based in fact, but people just see "okay this person is not hetero therefore they must be gay" and they don't view asexuality, aspec identities as an option even if there's a lot of evidence, and in both the cases of Langston Hughes and Octavia Butler a lot of evidence is discussed especially with Octavia where she at different points said "I don't think I'm a lesbian"
KAYLA: (laughing) Yeah.
SARAH: And she said things that today are very clearly, could be very clearly interpreted as asexual, and there was just this discussion of how aspec identities are not seen as an option even among queer people, and we kind of enforce certain sexualities onto people because we want to see them. And I understand that. I understand that you want to feel represented by someone, but there's often no space for ambiguity, and there's no space for aspec identities in that, and that's a problem in and of itself
KAYLA: Yeah, I really really liked that chapter. There's again so much history that's brought in and experts on the topic that are brought in to talk about it and just historical evidence. It was a really cool chapter
SARAH: I feel like we've kind of just been jumping around the book like excited children
(laughter)
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: (laughing) And being like "and this part I loved, and this part"
KAYLA: And then this, and then this happened
SARAH: And then this happened. But I do want to emphasize, I'm sure you guys can tell by the fact that me and Kayla are just like "I love this". This is a really excellent book and it's very informative, and it's very educational, and it will make you, even if you feel like you're the most informed person in the world, it will give you things to think about and it will make you think about your own place in all of it. And I would just really recommend this book! I can't say that enough. No one's paying me to say this
KAYLA: No
SARAH: No one's telling me to say this.
KAYLA: Yeah I think definitely anyone who is not Black especially should be reading this
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: I hope we are not putting off any energy that either of us know really what we're talking about, we're kind of just regurgitating excitedly what we read. I think that also kind of clearly states our ignorance and that we have a lot more research to do
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: But I will say that as someone who struggles to find good research, or sometimes struggles to know the right thing to do, or what I can do to help the asexual community be more diverse, I think this book is a really good start for that if you're feeling lost. I definitely personally feel a lot more informed. I feel like I have a lot better of an idea of what to do, what to look for, what to read more of. Yeah.
SARAH: Yeah. In the foreword, which is written by Hesse Love, in the very first sentence, they say that.. they refer to Sherronda as a conjurer, and I wholeheartedly agree. Sherronda created something that we hadn't had yet but that we needed so badly and so I think this book is so important and especially if you are not Black, especially if you are white specifically, it is a very important read, and a very good read.
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: I will end on saying this one thing. Is that – I took a bunch of notes on my phon when I was doing this, and one of my favorite notes that I took is "I am a frigid bitch. So true"
KAYLA: Sarah has regurgitated that note to me several times, so clearly she's very proud of it
SARAH: I'm a frigid bitch. So true. Listen, it's the way it is. There's a whole chapter about frigidity which was so interesting. In conclusion, every chapter was interesting.
KAYLA: Yeah I don't know how much real content came out of this. This was really just book club hours so maybe you should come back and listen to this after you read it? I don't know
SARAH: Yeah and then just talk back at us
KAYLA: At us
SARAH: We won't be able to hear you
KAYLA: This was really just recorded book club time between Kayla and Sarah, but like Sarah said in the beginning, this is absolutely no substitute to reading the book.
(40:00)
KAYLA: Sarah and I clearly are not experts and have no right to be speaking on this topic really, so definitely read it.
SARAH: Indeed
KAYLA: Again the title is Refusing Compulsory Sexuality: a Black Asexual Lens on our sex-obsessed culture. Again would recommend buying from a local Indie book store if you can
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: If not, you can go to others if you must.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Or get it from our giveaway. Head over to our Instagram
SARAH: So true
KAYLA: You could get a free one.
SARAH: You could get a free one. And then when you've bought one for yourself –
KAYLA: You'll have two!
SARAH: You can give one to a friend
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Because you have two now.
KAYLA: Exactly.
SARAH: Give one to your mom. Alright. Kayla, what is our poll this week?
KAYLA: Oh man. I don't know
SARAH: Are you buying Sherronda's book? Yes or Yes
KAYLA: Or no I'm stinky
SARAH: No I'm stinky. Or the fourth option, no because of financial reasons or because of my own safety but I'm interested and I want to get it
KAYLA: That's a very long answer but okay
SARAH: Yeah that's a really long answer. Figure it out
KAYLA: Okay I'll work on that
SARAH: Wonderful. Again, @soundsfakepod on Instagram. Enter the giveaway, you could get one for free
KAYLA: Yep.
SARAH: Yep
KAYLA: Yep.
SARAH: Kayla, what is your beef and your juice this week?
KAYLA: Wow imagine us remembering to do beef and juice. Let's see. My beef is that I fell down my stairs today
SARAH: Mm
KAYLA: The stairs in my new home are very bad. They're very slippery because they have landlord special paint over them
SARAH: Ah
KAYLA: And also they're like rounded?
SARAH: Ooh
KAYLA: So I was carrying both my cats down the stairs today
SARAH: (laughing) Why?
KAYLA: Because they needed to go downstairs. And then I slipped and slid down many of the stairs and I skinned my elbows.
SARAH: Oh no not the elbows
KAYLA: It was not fun.
SARAH: That's sad
KAYLA: My juice is that I got a rug and it's the type of rug that's like a playmat
SARAH: (laughing) For children?
KAYLA: Like the ones you drive cars on. Yeah it was in the Ikea children's section. And it's the one where there's roads and buildings on it so you can drive your car, and it's delightful and sometimes the cats sit on it and it's like "oh no they're causing a traffic jam"
SARAH: Catzilla
KAYLA: And it's just very delightful. That's it
SARAH: Amazing. My beef is it's been so fucking hot on the West coast of the United States. It has been in the 100s every day
KAYLA: Yucky.
SARAH: Which is... it was 110 the other day and I looked it up and I think it was 37 degrees celsius? The other day I was outside for maybe 15 minutes total but it was 110 degrees so I was so sweaty. It was bad. Shout out to air conditioning and shout out to the state of California for messaging us every day saying please conserve energy so that the entire grid doesn't go down.
KAYLA: Yikes
SARAH: Yeah. No I got a message one time that was like, please don't do laundry until the morning.
KAYLA: (laughing) Oh no
SARAH: (laughing) And they're like "between 4 and 9, please don't turn your AC as high as you want to otherwise you will lose power". That's my beef. My juice is that I got star stickers. Like the little stickers that you would get in school
KAYLA: (laughing) For children?
SARAH: For children. And for namkook month because it is Namjoon and Jungkook's birthdays this month in the month of September. Of BTS of course. And they're both swole. They both work out. And I'm like namkook month is Sarah workout month because I haven't worked out in ages and it's bad for my mental health
KAYLA: But then it made your butt hurt
SARAH: Well we're getting there. But I have my little paper calendar and I got stickers that I can put them on the days that I worked out as a little reward for myself because I'm a baby. It did make my ass and my thighs and my inner thighs and my whole legs and my calves sore. It's been 3 days and they're still sore
(45:00)
SARAH: Sometimes I walk in a little woman... it's pretty rough. But you know. We live and we learn. That's all. You can tell us about your beef, your juice, your favorite part of Sherronda J Brown's book
KAYLA: Yes please
SARAH: On our social media @soundsfakepod. I would also recommend following Sherronda on Twitter
KAYLA: Yes. And also reading their other writing
SARAH: yeah
KAYLA: I don't know that they have any other books but they have quite a few articles
SARAH: They are @sherrondajbrown. Get it
KAYLA: There you go
SARAH: Get that full name. Sherronda S-H-E-R-R-O-N-D-A J Brown. Highly recommend following. Sometimes their tweets come up on my stan Twitter account because other people have liked them and I'm like "Oh my god I know them"
KAYLA: I know them. Famous
SARAH: Yeah you should follow Sherronda. Also enter our book giveaway. If you would like to support us on Patreon, that's also a thing you could do. Patreon.com/soundsfakepod. Our $5 patrons who we are promoting this week are Kathryn Bailey, Kelly, Leila, Lily, and Livvy. What a tongue twister.
KAYLA: Damn
SARAH: Our $10 patrons who are promoting something this week are David Jay who would like to promote Emergent Strategy by Adrienne Maree Brown, David Nurse who would like to promote Sherronda J Brown's book. Derek and Carissa who would like to promote the overthrow of heteronormativity specifically white cisheteronormativity
KAYLA: Mhm
SARAH: Which, I mean, it all goes together let's be real. CinnamonToastPunch who would like to promote rainy walks with friends and splashing in puddles, and my Aunt Jeannie who would like to promote Christopher's Haven. Our other $10 patrons are Arcnes, Ari K, Benjamin Ybarra, Changeling and Alex the ace cat – and because Alex the ace cat can read Alex the ace cat will be reading this book
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: Alex is literate. We've established this. Our other $10 patrons are Maggie Capalbo, Martin Chiesl, Mattie, Potater, PurpleHayes, Rosie Costello, Barefoot Backpacker, The Steve, and Zirklteo. Our $15 patrons are Andrew Hillum who would like to promote the Invisible Spectrum Podcast, Click4Caroline who would like to promote Ace of Hearts, Dia Chappell who would like to promote Twitch.tv/MelodyDia, Hector Murillo who would like to promote friends that are supportive, constructive, and help you grow as a better person, Keziah Root who would like to promote the people who come into your life for a small time but when you need them, Nathaniel White who would like to promote NathanielJWhiteDesigns.com, Kayla's Aunt Nina who would like to promote @katemaggart.art, and Sara Jones who is @eternalloli everywhere. Our $20 patrons are Sabrina Hauck (singing) Merry Christmas, and Dragonfly. Dragonfly would like to promote – I'm trying to think of something new. I already said the book
KAYLA: Me going to sleep. I'm so sleepy.
SARAH: Dragonfly would like to promote Kayla going to sleep. Thanks for listening. Buy Sherronda's book, also maybe get ours while you're at it. soundsfakepod.com/book.
KAYLA: Why not?
SARAH: Thanks for listening. Did I already say that? Doesn't matter. Tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.
KAYLA: Until then, take good care of your cows.
(48:09)