Hey what's up hello! As Aro Week 2024 comes to an end, we talk about the way aromanticism is often linked with asexuality and how that can ultimately harm the aromantic community.
Content Warning: Light descriptions of sexual activities
Episode Transcript: www.soundsfakepod.com/transcripts/separating-aromanticism-from-asexuality
Shop our Bookshop.org storefront: https://bookshop.org/shop/soundsfakepod
Check out Hopeless Aromantic: https://bookshop.org/a/101336/9781839973673
Donate: patreon.com/soundsfakepod
Follow: @soundsfakepod
Join: https://discord.gg/W7VBHMt
Buy our book: www.soundsfakepod.com/book
Hey what's up hello! As Aro Week 2024 comes to an end, we talk about the way aromanticism is often linked with asexuality and how that can ultimately harm the aromantic community.
Content Warning: Light descriptions of sexual activities
Episode Transcript: www.soundsfakepod.com/transcripts/separating-aromanticism-from-asexuality
Shop our Bookshop.org storefront: https://bookshop.org/shop/soundsfakepod
Check out Hopeless Aromantic: https://bookshop.org/a/101336/9781839973673
Donate: patreon.com/soundsfakepod
Follow: @soundsfakepod
Join: https://discord.gg/W7VBHMt
Buy our book: www.soundsfakepod.com/book
[00:00:00]
SARAH: Hey what's up, hello! Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro ace girl, I'm Sarah, that's me.
KAYLA: And a bi demisexual girl, that's me, Kayla.
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don't understand.
KAYLA: On today's episode, ‘Aromanticism is not Asexuality.’
BOTH: Sounds Fake But Okay.
[Intro Music]
SARAH: Welcome back to the pod!
KAYLA: Happy aro week!
SARAH: I hope everyone had a delightful aro week.
KAYLA: We were wrong last week when in the middle I was like, oh shit, it’s aro week
SARAH: We're usually wrong.
KAYLA: It wasn't, so we actually didn't miss it, get that, haters
SARAH: Much like always, we are constantly wrong.
KAYLA: Wrong. Yeah, lol.
SARAH: I would say wrong and loud, I think maybe you're wrong and loud, I'm wrong and less loud.
KAYLA: Why would you say that to me?
SARAH: I think it's accurate. No, I am wrong, now that I think about it
KAYLA: That's so hateful, what you’re going to say. If you're going to say that about me, at least have the guts to say it about yourself.
SARAH: No, I have changed my mind.
KAYLA: See, and you were just wrong and loud
SARAH: I was providing an example.
KAYLA: Oh, thank you. Thank you
SARAH: I hope everyone had a wonderful aro week. I have a piece of housekeeping.
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: Okay, so remember how many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many moons ago, we had some other folks on our podcast to talk about a movie that they were making…
KAYLA: Yes, yes
SARAH: That has asexuality in it.
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: And it was called ‘Dear Luke, Love, Me.’ I don't know how to say, I don't understand the cadence.
KAYLA: Yeah, the punctuation. Dear Luke– is it Dear Luke, Love, Me? Or is it like Dear Luke, Please Love Me? I don’t know
SARAH: I think the point is that it's both, but then it makes it hard to say.
KAYLA: It's a say, yeah.
SARAH: I always read it as Dear Luke, Love, Me.
KAYLA: Same
SARAH: But anyway, that movie has been completed. It is premiering at a film festival, which I forgot the name of, in Los Angeles on February 29th at the Lord's 9:45 PM.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: I'm going to be there.
KAYLA: She's doing it. You all should be there.
SARAH: So, if anyone else wants to roll up, you can get tickets just for that, not for the whole festival, but just for that screening for like 25 bucks. And it's in downtown LA and it'll be a riot. And unfortunately, Caroline, who was one of the delightful people who was on the podcast with us, is not able to travel for it.
KAYLA: Sad
SARAH: But I will be there, so
KAYLA: That is very exciting. That also makes me want to look– Rhaina Cohen, who we had on several episodes ago, is on her mini book tour and is going to be in Cambridge in March. And I need to put that in my calendar so that all of us can also go to that together.
SARAH: Slay, little LA meetup, little Cambridge meetup.
KAYLA: Little Cambridge meetup, perhaps.
SARAH: Delightful. All right. That's the housekeeping. If you want to join me, let me know.
KAYLA: Yeah, go meet Sarah. That would be so sweet. The other housekeeping is that our book is today as the day we're recording.
SARAH: One year old.
KAYLA: One year old. Wild.
SARAH: In just a few short months, we can finally stop counting its age in months.
KAYLA: I don't know whether that's true.
SARAH: Once you past like 18, it gets a little unhinged to continue with the months.
KAYLA: Listen, I agree it's hard to keep track of, but I've heard from some parents that you really have to because they'll be like, here's my two-year-old, but then also here's also my two-year-old months later. And they look completely different because they do be growing so fast.
SARAH: Then fucking say two-and-a-half-year-old.
KAYLA: That's fair. I don't, I'm not, I don't have a toddler, you know.
SARAH: I hate it when people are like, I have a 46-month-old and a… and a 27-month-old and a nine-month-old.
KAYLA: Yeah, that’s fair
SARAH: And I'm like, I only know what one of those means.
KAYLA: My other housekeeping, speaking of books, is that I made us affiliates on bookshop.org because we're in our influencer era.
SARAH: Yeah, you did. And I literally just signed my lease that costs way more money than it used to, so
KAYLA: Yeah. So, we need money. So let me find the link. But we have like a storefront, like how people have an Amazon storefront, but it's better because it's not Amazon.
SARAH: Booking Amazon
KAYLA: Bookshop.org storefront where you can buy our book and you can buy the books of all of our guests. And also, I put some of the recent books I've mentioned, like in my juices.
SARAH: Did you include the book that I wrote a foreword of? Yeah, you did.
KAYLA: Yes, I did. Which we can also talk about here in a second. So, it's in our linktree on our socials. You can go there. It's also– I put it on the homepage of our website, but it's bookshop.org/shop/soundsfakepod.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Okay? And then so you can buy our book there and it kicks back some money to us or our guest books or like I said, the books that I've read and mentioned on the podcast. I asked Sarah, what are books you would like to put on here? And she said, I don't read anymore. You guys don't get to shop Sarah's bookshelf.
SARAH: There are two books that I've been reading for many weeks now. And when I say I've been reading them, I mean, I read them once.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And then I haven't picked them up. So, I mean, I can share those with you if you want.
KAYLA: So anyway…
SARAH: Do you want them?
KAYLA: You can give them to me if you want.
SARAH: Well, one of them is The Anthropocene Reviewed by John Green, which as I've said before, I literally pre-ordered that book.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And it came out years ago and I have not finished it still.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: The other one is a little more timely. I'm reading… Except for Palestine: the Limits of Progressive Politics by Mark Lamont Hill and Mitchell Plitnick. It has been good so far.
KAYLA: That is good.
SARAH: It's timely.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: So there.
KAYLA: Thank you. Another book that's on there is the book that Sarah wrote the foreword for which I know we posted about, but I don't know if we actually ever talked about it on the podcast.
SARAH: I forgot I did it.
KAYLA: Yeah. It’s Hopeless Aromantic: An Affirmative Guide to Aromanticism by Samantha Rendell, and Sarah wrote the foreword for it.
SARAH: I sure did.
KAYLA: And then…
SARAH: I reread that foreword today and I was like, damn…
KAYLA: I also read it.
SARAH: Get some points.
KAYLA: So, you can also shop that on our storefront and celebrate Aro Week with that, that's bookshop.org/shop/soundsfakepod, pay Sarah's rent.
SARAH: Oh, please.
KAYLA: Please.
SARAH: Um, let's… oh, what are we talking about this week?
KAYLA: This week talking about the aromanticism because… yeah.
SARAH: On the topic of the foreword of the book that I wrote, the foreword of… the foreword that I wrote for the book that's not ours.
KAYLA: For the book that you didn’t write. Yeah.
SARAH: Well, because the book is about aromanticism.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: And so, the foreword is about aromanticism but more specifically…
KAYLA: Wild
SARAH: I know, more specifically, it is about how aromanticism kind of always falls under the purview of asexuality.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And how it is, you know, its own separate thing, but it's often not given the time and space it deserves in queer spaces/ in aspec spaces generally. And so, we thought that might be a little festive to talk about this Aro Week. I know it's over for all of you, but as you all know, we can't read a calendar.
KAYLA: Is it thought? Is it just ending?
SARAH: It's just, it's… I mean, if you're a patron and you're listening to this a day early, then it's still happening.
KAYLA: Oh, I see.
SARAH: So, I don't know, but we thought we would talk about that because A, we reread the foreword that I wrote and we were like, damn, she has got bars.
KAYLA: She said some shit.
SARAH: And B, it's festive.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: So where shall we begin?
KAYLA: I mean, you're the Aro one.
SARAH: Ugh, my God.
KAYLA: You know what I mean? I mean, I think…
SARAH: Like I'm Aro, but I just… I was going to do a really bad pun, but it was even…
KAYLA: No, but now you have to.
SARAH: I was going to say something to the effect of like me being Aro, but I don't have an arrow to point us in the direction, but it was so bad that I actually decided no.
KAYLA: The other day, Dean was making dinner and he was chopping up some onions and garlic and he came into the living room, threw the onions and garlic at me and said, “aromantic, more like aromatics,” and then just left and then didn't clean up the onion and garlic that he threw at me. And it was like, it wasn't like chopped. It was like the whole thing. So, it's not like it was hard to clean up, but he just like left it in the living room.
SARAH: Men
[00:10:00]
KAYLA: And I was like, “hello?” So anyway, I guess we could start with just like, even in this podcast, I feel like we often struggle with this because only one half of us is Aro. And also, I think you figuring out you’re Aro came later and then your Aro and Ace-ness are so tied together that often when we talk about things on the show, we'll just say Ace when really we should be saying either just Aro or like the aspec as a whole, and we don't parse it out either.
SARAH: I will... I think that for me was more true in the earlier days. I now more frequently say aspec. But the thing about saying aspec is that people often hear it as ace spec.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Which is not what I'm saying.
KAYLA: Right. Yes.
SARAH: And so, people might interpret it as I'm talking more about asexuality when, you know, for me, it's… I'm talking about both. But you are right. And that, like, for me, it's they are linked pretty inextricably in terms of how they impact my life.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And I cannot rend them from one another. We're back. I know you haven't heard any of it, but Kayla's thing has stopped recording like three times.
KAYLA: I'm having a lot of problems. I'm having a lot of fun. I even deleted a bunch of shit from my computer. It's a whole thing. Anyway, what I was trying to say was it might also be a me perception thing, because when I hear you say aspec, first of all, yes, it sometimes sounds like ace spec. And also, to me, as someone who's not aro, whenever we're talking about any of this stuff and I'm thinking about it from my personal viewpoint, I'm always thinking of it just through the ace lens because that's what the examples in my life...
SARAH: Because the world revolves around you
KAYLA: Okay, first of all, yes. Second of all...
SARAH: Yeah. No, I think that's fair.
KAYLA: Anyway, you know.
SARAH: And it's hard because I think not only are there more people who identify as ace or acespec than people who identify as aro or arospec.
KAYLA: Do you think so?
SARAH: In terms of people who use the identifiers, I would say so.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: That's not really based– I haven't seen a study about this, but that's just my impression based off of seeing people on the internet.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And I think that is in part just because of a lack of awareness of aro identities and especially for women who are more likely to identify as ace, may be more reticent to identify as aro and for people like me who, you know, we've talked about this to a great extent on this podcast about how the problem with aspec identities is that it's a lack of something. And so, it's harder to figure out.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And I think, at least speaking to my personal experience, it was much harder to identify the lack of romantic attraction than the lack of sexual attraction.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: So, I think for a lot of people, it's just a more difficult conclusion to come to because no one knows what the difference between romance and sensual attraction or just platonic, like, no one knows.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Whereas the line with sex is a little bit clear.
KAYLA: Yeah. Well, because like with sex, you either like have sex or you don't, but like…
SARAH: Well, but you can still be ace and have sex.
KAYLA: No, no, I know. I’m just saying like… I think…
SARAH: It's harder to differentiate like, “Oh, you don't do romance?”
KAYLA: It's harder to differentiate the difference between like a friendship and a romantic relationship because there's so much overlap. But when you are in a sexual
SARAH: You don't accidentally have sex.
KAYLA: Exactly. Like, yes.
SARAH: I mean, you might quote unquote, by accident…
KAYLA: I fell, I slipped in, I fell in
SARAH: I fell onto this person's dick.
KAYLA: Oh no.
SARAH: No, but like, I slipped into this, uh, uh, Oh, fuck. What's it called?
KAYLA: Vagina?
SARAH: No. What's the thing that you peg someone with?
KAYLA: Strap.
SARAH: Strap. That’s what I was trying to say, but I couldn't remember the word. Oh, I slipped and I fell just into this strap on and now I'm wearing it.
KAYLA: Oh, no. Anyway
SARAH: That’s all
KAYLA: Like you… yes. Like obviously, yes, you can have sex and not have a sexual attraction, but to me it feels like sexual attraction is a unique enough experience from love that like you can kind of parse out a little bit easier if you experience it. Not that it's a…
SARAH: Love versus lust, sort of thing
KAYLA: Yeah. Not that it's like easy by any means, but trying to figure out are these romantic feelings I'm feeling or are they like friendship or other types of loves, um, is I think a lot difficult… like a lot more difficult because there's not really any good standard definitions of any of that out there.
SARAH: And with sex and like what constitutes sex and what constitutes wanting to have sex with someone. I mean, obviously there are differing opinions. Go ahead and just ask the Mormons who are soaking.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: They don't count as sex.
KAYLA: Yeah. Yes.
SARAH: Um, if you don't know what we're talking about.
KAYLA: Go watch Jury Duty.
SARAH: Oh, is it in Jury Duty?
KAYLA: Oh, Sarah. Is it in Jury Duty? You have to watch Jury Duty. Sarah, James Marsden helps them soak.
SARAH: Oh, no. Okay…
KAYLA: It’s so good.
SARAH: Just… we'll do the short version.
KAYLA: Do we… must we?
SARAH: Look it up if you want to know.
KAYLA: Am I going to have to put a content warning for soaking on this episode?
SARAH: Uh, look it up if you want to know, I would consider it to be sex, but the Mormons don't.
KAYLA: Yeah, it's definitely sex.
SARAH: It really is.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And it's in a lot of ways, it's group sex.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: Now I feel like we have to explain what it is.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: Soaking is when…
KAYLA: I’m writing a note for this.
SARAH: Soaking is when you have a dick and you have a vagina and you stick the dick in the vagina, but you don't move because if you don't move, it's not sex. So, then they have people like shake the bed.
KAYLA: That's what… spoilers, James Marsden was the bed shaker in Jury Duty.
SARAH: Because apparently that doesn't count as sex.
KAYLA: Yeah, I don't know. I don't think a lot of Mormons actually believe… I don't like, I don't know how real soaking is versus just like an urban legend.
SARAH: Have you seen those interviews with BYU students?
KAYLA: Uh, some of them. Yeah, I guess.
SARAH: A decent number of them have been like, yeah, I either partook in soaking or like, I have a direct, like I have direct knowledge of it actually happening.
KAYLA: That's tough.
SARAH: It may be like a very BYU thing.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Rather than like a broader Mormon thing. But…
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Anyway…
KAYLA: Anyway. What? What were we talking about?
SARAH: Sorry, we got derailed by the railing. But like there's a… even if people disagree on what constitutes sex, like there's still a general like scientific…
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: Like this is the generally accepted definition, but as you say, there's no like generally accepted definition of like, this is romance and this is not.
KAYLA: Yeah. What's interesting is I was… I've been reading, um, ‘All About Love’ by bell hooks for the class I'm taking. And the first chapter or so is all just about like, there is no…
SARAH: Sorry. Is your yoga class going to become your new feminism class?
KAYLA: Who's to say? Who's to say? I don't know how relevant it's going to be to our topic at hand. I guess. Yeah, whatever. Anyway.
SARAH: bell hooks wrote the epigraph of our book.
KAYLA: I know. She did. She did. Anyway, the whole like first chapter is just about how there is no agreed upon definition for love and how like, of course everyone is bad at doing love when we can't even all agree on what it means.
SARAH: Yeah. Anyway. We were definitely going somewhere with it…
KAYLA: Well, I think just, I think we were just talking about how it makes sense that figuring out your aromanticism can be more difficult when the definitions around what romantic feelings are versus like platonic or other affection feelings are so vague.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: But the definitions around sexual attraction, I think are still very confusing. I don't want anyone to feel like, oh, I can't figure out if I feel sexual attraction, I must be stupid. They're still very confusing, but I think they're slightly less confusing.
SARAH: Slightly more clearly delineated in our social order.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And I think, you know, that's definitely part of the reason why there may be fewer people who identify as arospec. And then like, as I mentioned earlier, because women are supposed to be more romantic and more interested in romance, a lot of women or AFABS who may be– may feel comfortable identifying as ace or aspec may feel less comfortable identifying as arospec because of what society has just ingrained into their psyche about what they as a woman or as a person who was raised as a woman ought to, like how they experienced than what they want.
KAYLA: It is unfortunate, I do think that being ace is more socially acceptable than being aro, because I think… and there's like studies about this. We did a whole episode about this. Like people are just in general having less sex than like our past generations.
[00:20:00]
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: Like it's just for whatever reason, people just like aren't fucking as much.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: And I think people are, I don't know, for a lot of different reasons, just like more aware of what they're doing with their bodies, how they interact.
SARAH: It’s definitely capitalism as well.
KAYLA: Oh, I mean, it always is.
SARAH: I strongly believe it's mostly capitalism as well.
KAYLA: Yeah, probably. I also, I mean, I think some of it is a good thing. Some of it is people realizing that they don't need to have sex. Like it's like a slight lessening of like compulsory sexuality.
SARAH: And like people being able to stand up for their own bodily autonomy.
KAYLA: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Or like you don't have to get married at 18 right out of high school and like start pumping out kids, you know? So, like, I think some of it is a good thing. And then yes, some of it is like, we're all just more depressed now and depressed people don't want to have sex.
SARAH: Hehehe
KAYLA: What was I saying? Oh yeah. So, like not having sex, I think it's still very taboo. I think we can all agree that we've faced a lot of aphobia in general because of that. But to say that you're aromantic, I think is even more boggling to people. Like people can maybe understand not wanting to have sex or like, you know, in their understanding, maybe that's obviously not what asexuality actually means, but in the layman's understanding, they could maybe understand that. But understanding that you don't experience or feel like that romantic attraction or don't feel it in the way they do, I think is a lot more shocking.
SARAH: Like your average, like Joe's bookstore, your Barnes and Noble doesn't have a smut section that is called smut, but they do have a romance section that is called romance.
KAYLA: Yes. I mean, I feel like we're really getting close to the point where there is going to be a smut section of most bookstores.
SARAH: I mean yeah
KAYLA: I think we're really getting there.
SARAH: I've seen some discourse about how like people on booktok are like influencing kids into reading spicy books. And it's like, okay, first of all, I'm glad that those kids are reading. Like, isn't that a whole thing where kids aren't reading enough?
KAYLA: They aren't. That is a big problem. A lot of children are becoming illiterate.
SARAH: And then I saw a lot of people like on Twitter who were like Gen X, who were like, yeah, we read fucking everything. Like I read my mom's like smutty romance books and I turned out fine.
KAYLA: Yeah. I mean, think about like what age we all started like reading fanfiction, you know?
SARAH: Also, just like, it's your job as a parent to be policing what your child is reading, not fucking TikToks.
KAYLA: The internet. I saw… I did see a funny video that there's this book Icebreaker, which is like a famous like hockey romance book that's like very spicy. But it's designed like the new romance books are. So, it's like a very cutesy kind of like cartoon cover, which it's not like when we were younger, all the erotica books were just like men with abs.
SARAH: Or bosom
KAYLA: Yes, you could very clearly tell like this person is reading erotica. So, it just like looks like a cutesy whatever, but it's like a very sexual book. And this girl like this or this girl saw that her mom bought it for her younger sister. And she was like, “what the fuck are you doing?” And the mom was like, “oh, I thought it looked cute. I got it for your sister.” And she was like, “no,” anyway.
SARAH: Give it a couple of years.
KAYLA: Yeah. Yeah. Anyway.
SARAH: Anyway, we're really barely staying on the rails in this podcast.
KAYLA: I mean, who among us, you know?
SARAH: And if you think about queerness as the… according to society, second tier subset to hetero-ness. And then aceness as, according to society, the second tier to queerness.
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: Aroness kind of falls as the second tier to aceness.
KAYLA: I see what you're saying.
SARAH: In that metaphorical representation, which again is not how it should be, but it is one way that you can interpret it.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And so, I think it's a marginalized community within a marginalized community within a marginalized community.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And so of course we're going to be lumped in with aces in the same way that aces are going to get lumped in with just queer folks generally.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But then on top of that, you have part of the reason why there's less… not just representation, but just like awareness of aro identities is just because there's a lack of awareness of the split model of attraction.
KAYLA: Yes, absolutely.
SARAH: And so, people look at asexuality and they're like, oh, that encompasses aromanticism because you see words like homosexual and that almost always implies homoromantic in addition to homosexual. And so, it's a lack of understanding of the split model, which is why a lot of the awareness of aro identities is really limited to already aspec spaces.
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: And like the more quote unquote, woke queer spaces, the more well read and well…
KAYLA: Ingrained?
SARAH: Yeah, like the sorts of queer people in spaces who really read about queerness and are really engaged with it rather than they're just like, I'm queer.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: And so, I think the combination of all those things, it's like to make more people aware of it, you have to… so you have to TED talk asexuality to begin with. And then once they get that, you have to TED talk the split model and you have to TED talk aromanticism. And then once they get that, then you can separate them.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And I'm not saying they should always be separated because, I mean, we're all under one umbrella for a reason. But like I am, I do believe that, like, I think it would benefit us… I think I've said this in the pod before, I think it would benefit us if we tried to actively move towards embracing broader language to refer to the community so that it's not the asexual community, but that it's the aspec community.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And, you know, hopefully that can extend to other queer identities and have them be like, “oh, maybe we should also be inclusive of this thing.”
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Maybe that's too much to ask for, but… Like, I'm very much a fan of expanding that terminology. And so, if I'm ever on this podcast and I say aspec and you're like, was that acespec or aspec? It's always aspec unless I say acespec.
KAYLA: Yeah, that's true.
SARAH: I will put a weird pause in it.
KAYLA: That's true. No, I do think it's a very good point about the split model. And I hadn't thought about that is like, your average person does not think about romantic and sexual identity as a separate thing. You just have, what is your sexuality? And then people expect that to cover everything, which sucks. And you can't really blame people because there's no one out there teaching that. So, it's like, how are you supposed to know when a lot of people aren't even being taught about sexuality in the first place? So, yeah, that's a good point because, yes, how are you supposed to understand what aromanticism is if you don't understand what romanticism is of any kind?
SARAH: Right. And there are a lot of people too, who come into it and are like, oh, that's too complicated. Like, you're just ace.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And it's getting through to them and explaining why this is important to differentiate can be difficult, even if they are kind of well-intentioned. There's a lot of like, “okay, well, why do you need all these words?” And that's just a general aspec problem.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But I think it can really apply to aros and arospecs in a really difficult way in the sense that it's like, no, but this part of my identity, especially for those who don't also identify as ace or whose arospec and acespec identities have slightly different prefixes in terms of the more specifics of their identities. Like, for those people who those things don't align, it can be very invalidating when someone's like, oh, it's just all the same. It's like, no, it's actually not at all the same.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And then this is something we've said so many times, but just so often the push for acceptance of asexuality in queer spaces, in hetero spaces, in whatever spaces, a lot of times is like, “oh, but we still experience romantic attraction. We still have romance.” And so it's very, I can't think of a ding-dang word today. It's condescending, not condescending, but it's like actively putting down aros with the intention of building up aces. And it's like, that's not how we make progress.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like, it's giving the women suffrage activists who were working with Black activists and then as soon as they saw a window for them to get the right to vote that didn't include Black people, they just threw them to the side and they were like, okay. Obviously, that's maybe a more extreme example, but it's the vibe that it feels like sometimes.
[00:30:00]
KAYLA: Yeah, I think it's hard because I think for lack of a better word, aromanticism is less sexy than asexuality.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: When you are thinking about the types of publications or media that is wanting to cover or introduce asexuality, it's more interesting to them to show an ace person who is in a romantic relationship because then you have the big drama of like…
SARAH: It is a story
KAYLA: How do you navigate a relationship without having sex, assuming you're an ace person who doesn't have sex, which again, that just simplifies it even more, where like the quote-unquote best portrayals of an ace person that are most interesting is someone who is ace, does not have sex, but is still trying to date, like that is the most like a dramatic, difficult version of that.
SARAH: Yeah, at least according to like…
KAYLA: Hollywood
SARAH: A hetero, allo audience.
KAYLA: Yes, yeah, absolutely. And aromanticism just doesn't fit into that. We've talked so many times on this podcast about how media loves to throw a love story into something. They want that as a narrative driver and aromanticism just does not fit with that. And it's like, it's such a crutch for so many people.
SARAH: And it's hard to convince people that stories can be interesting without romance, that you can still have those conflicts, in large part because other people don't prioritize platonic relationships in the way that so many aros and arospecs do, so they see those as a second-tier relationship. And so, they're like, that's not as dramatically interesting.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Because again, it's just like the inherent prioritization of romantic sexual partners. Like it has just this domino effect onto like everything. And so, it's hard to convince them otherwise.
KAYLA: Yeah, and it's hard when it's so ingrained in our culture and our politics as well. Like the institution of marriage and the benefits that it provides and what getting married and finding a lifelong partner is supposed to mean vis-a-vis romance and love and things like that. It's so systemic, especially to how America is, that it's unfortunate because you can look at everything and you're like, damn, yeah, it really makes sense why we are where we are with asexuality getting a small bit more of a platform in recent years and why aromanticism is not like it… It unfortunately makes complete sense. And then it's like, well, then what are we supposed to do about it?
SARAH: Yeah, and that's something that I struggle with as well when I first meet people who find out about my identities is because I am both aro and ace and I don't have interest in pursuing relationships really of any sort under those umbrellas. It's on one hand an asset because I am more palatable to people. They understand it better in terms of like-
KAYLA: It's all or nothing.
SARAH: Oh, so it's all or nothing. It's black or white. But then when they will often get a false impression that that is what all asexuals are like because, again, they just clump aromanticism in with asexuality. And then I'm like, okay, well, but for other people, that's not necessarily the case. And they're like, but for you, it is.
KAYLA: Right. Because you are a rarity. Being both ace and aro statistically is a rarity. But…
SARAH: Yeah, I'm special. It means I’m special.
KAYLA: But it's like what is shown most often, I feel like.
SARAH: Yeah, it's easier to communicate and it's easier to telegraph to people. And people don't want to be faced with complex things they don't understand. They want to be faced with things that are easy to explain and easy to comprehend. And when they're not, such as if they're an ace person who doesn't have sex, but does seek a romantic relationship, it needs to be complex in a way that can be easily story told.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: That can be made into an arc that can be easily digested by the average audience. And so, when it gets more complicated than that, people tune out.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And it sucks.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And like… Then the question is like, “okay, so what do we do?” I don't know. Like, really, for me, since I'm in a position to try and push on a very small scale of being like, hey, maybe we don't have to use romance as a crutch, that's something that I do. Although I was recently in a meeting where I was very frustrated by the things that were being said to the point where I didn't even want to engage with it.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Because I didn't have anything. I like, yeah, it wasn't going to be productive. But to me, the one big thing is just pushing people, especially ace people and acespec people, to not use asexual and asexuality as the umbrella term, but use aspec as the umbrella term.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And also, just like, everything's purple, which purple is a nice color.
KAYLA: Yeah. But…
SARAH: Like that was… that's an issue that we've had with our fucking logos.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And our book cover.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Where it's like, you know, purple is the more well-known color. But we don't want to exclude our little greeny folks, except purple and green don't look ugly together you guys...
KAYLA: Don’t go there, they're so bad is the thing.
SARAH: Don’t look that well
KAYLA: And even if, like I saw, and I think I've talked about this on the podcast before, that someone like switched the color purples on the bi and the ace flag and the colors go so much better on the opposite one. Like the purple of the bi flag goes so well on the ace flag and the purple of the ace flag goes so well on the bi flag. Like if we could just switch them, I think a lot of our problems would be fixed.
SARAH: Well, you have you have both. So, you can…
KAYLA: I guess I could
SARAH: Kind of just switch them up.
KAYLA: I guess
SARAH: For your own personal use.
KAYLA: I guess. Anyway, yeah, I think that's the thing is like, I try to think about like, what can I do about this? And it's like, you know, I think the biggest thing for me, yes, is like being careful of my language and especially like on this podcast, being careful about when we're talking about certain topics and I am thinking about them generally as like an asexual thing of like, no, it is not. No. And like, I think, you know, that's kind of how it starts is just like thinking about ways you can like do that in your own personal life of like changing the language you use or the way you think about things.
SARAH: Yeah, it's a big A umbrella. It's not an asexual umbrella. There is an asexual umbrella under the big A umbrella.
KAYLA: Yes. There's a lot of umbrellas.
SARAH: Not to be confused with the big gay umbrella.
KAYLA: Which… yeah…
SARAH: But… yeah, aspec, what a great word.
KAYLA: Amazing.
SARAH: I think we should use it for everything. That's all that's really all I've got.
KAYLA: I love that.
SARAH: In conclusion, that. Anything else to add?
KAYLA: No.
SARAH: Okay. Kayla, what's our poll for this week? Here's my poll.
KAYLA: Oh, okay.
SARAH: Here's my poll.
KAYLA: She has one
SARAH: There has been some disagreement. Not like active disagreement. Just like if you're like me and you are like a grammar nut. You notice it. There is some disagreement on how to write aspec.
KAYLA: Oh, yeah
SARAH: Whether it's aspec one word or a dash spec or you can't really do a space spec. It doesn't work.
KAYLA: I feel like I've seen it.
SARAH: Then it's a spec.
KAYLA: Yeah. Oh yeah, that's true.
SARAH: Which means something else.
KAYLA: That's a different word.
SARAH: I am a big fan of eliminating dashes. No need for them.
KAYLA: She says as a lover of the m-dash.
SARAH: But that's an m-dash, not an n-dash.
KAYLA: So sorry. So sorry.
SARAH: I think we should eliminate dashes in words when they're not necessary.
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: I also, I would like it to be known, aro ace, two words, space in between them.
KAYLA: Interesting. That's a hot take.
SARAH: That is my stance. That is my stance.
KAYLA: I feel that that's a hot take.
SARAH: I will accept aro slash ace. But my preferred representation is aro space ace. Because then you got like a little space ace situation. I'm so silly, sally. For some reason, aro ace as one word really upsets me.
KAYLA: So interesting. I feel like that's the way I'm most used to seeing it.
SARAH: Yeah, and it upsets me.
KAYLA: Okay, well, there you go.
SARAH: And you know what? Let me make an argument for that.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: Against that, I mean.
KAYLA: Preach.
SARAH: Which is that the whole point is we want to separate these two names. We want to not conflate them one another.
KAYLA: Speak your truth. Speak.
SARAH: And the way to do that is to have them not be one word.
KAYLA: Grammar
[00:40:00]
SARAH: Put a space in there. I will even accept a dash. It's not preferred, but I do prefer it over no space at all. And those are my opinions. Thank you
KAYLA: Okay, well, thank you so much. I really don't.
SARAH: In this instance, I am loud and right.
KAYLA: Interesting. I don't know that I have an opinion on any of this.
SARAH: Which means that you have inherited my opinion.
KAYLA: Yeah, that is what I often do with opinions.
SARAH: Yep. Listen, I have never had an opinion in my life, except when I do.
KAYLA: Yeah, that's actually so true.
SARAH: And then I do.
KAYLA: And then she really does.
SARAH: And then I do. Do we have an actual poll?
KAYLA: No, that's it.
SARAH: What was the poll, though?
KAYLA: Yeah, I've written down a spec versus a dash spec and aro space ace versus aro slash ace versus aroace.
SARAH: If the wrong ones win.
KAYLA: Oh, brother. Y'all are in for it.
SARAH: I will quit this pod.
KAYLA: Imagine. Some people would be very happy. The haters. The ops.
SARAH: Would they be very happy to have just you?
KAYLA: I wouldn't keep going if you quit. Are you kidding me?
SARAH: I thought you meant they would be really happy to get rid of that one.
KAYLA: Oh, no, I meant the show would shut down. So sorry, everyone. But if Sarah quits, I'm also going to quit. Like, I'm not doing this by myself, that sucks.
SARAH: Anyway, okay. What's your beef and your juice for this week?
KAYLA: That's such a good question. My beef is this morning I was woken up by a jackhammer directly outside my door. I don't know what they were doing. I forgot to look when I went outside later.
SARAH: I would wager that they were jackhammering.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: You know, when my dad hammers, it's always a jackhammer.
KAYLA: I don't care.
SARAH: His name is Jack. That was a good joke. Not everyone listening is going to be aware.
KAYLA: I don't need them to be aware. It was a bad joke, and I think they would be better off not knowing.
SARAH: Wow.
KAYLA: Wow. Um, that's my beef. What is my juice? That's such a good question. Um, I got a new bag.
SARAH: Nice
KAYLA: I bought a Baggu bag.
SARAH: Nice
KAYLA: You know Baggu?
SARAH: Are you going to put ragu in it?
KAYLA: Dean made the same fucking joke, and I'm sick of it.
SARAH: I want to be clear that I don't mean a jar of ragu. I mean, you're going to pour the ragu in the bag.
KAYLA: (yelling off mic to Dean) I just told Sarah about my Baggu bag, and she was like, “Oh, you're going to put ragu in it?” I'm not telling her you said that.
SARAH: Do you think it'll show up in the mic?
KAYLA: I don't think so. You'll never know.
SARAH: Oh, man.
KAYLA: You'll never know what he said.
SARAH: Yeah, I mean, like, pouring the ragu.
KAYLA: Yeah, I know what you meant. Of course, I know that's what you meant.
SARAH: I'm happy for you. I'm glad you got that ragu Baggu.
KAYLA: This is my new beef.
SARAH: My beef is…
KAYLA: Sometimes you date a man who is too similar to your best friend, and then your life becomes inescapable.
SARAH: It's your fault. You have a type.
KAYLA: You don't have a beard.
SARAH: That's what you think. My beef is I'm beefing with Speedway Express.
KAYLA: With what?
SARAH: Speedway Express.
KAYLA: Oh, okay.
SARAH: For those who don't know, Speedway is a gas station, and there's a Speedway Express near me that has the cheapest prices, and I got a gift card for Christmas to Speedway,
KAYLA: That’s exciting
SARAH: And I was like, “hell yeah.” But then I had trouble using it. I even spoke to a real human person
KAYLA: Wow
SARAH: And that still wasn't working, and I was like, okay. So, then I was like, okay, here's what I'll do, I will get the app, and then I will upload the gift card to the app so that I don't have to worry about trying to swipe shit and having it be fucked up.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Because it was like, what's your pin? And I was like, fuck if I know. It's a gift card. But then I was like, okay, well now I have a Speedway rewards card, and I can gather points, which is great because this is basically the only gas station I go to. Except I think it's because it's a Speedway Express. I don't know how... I cannot give it my rewards information. Like, you know when you get there, and it's like, there's a button that says like, alt ID?
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: To put in your rewards?
KAYLA: Sure.
SARAH: Like, the same thing happens at the grocery store.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: Like, you just click alt ID. That button doesn't exist at my Speedway Express. And so, I don't... I'm salty. I'm mad about it. So, I'm beefing with Speedway.
KAYLA: Okay. I’m very sorry.
SARAH: My juice is last night I saw The Wiz.
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: It's the pre-Broadway tour. Unfortunately, Wayne Brady was not on last night.
KAYLA: Fuck. I saw Wayne Brady in Kinky Boots, I think.
SARAH: Okay.
KAYLA: Sorry, that was really insensitive. Just when you were just complaining about not seeing him.
SARAH: My mom was really excited about seeing Wayne Brady.
KAYLA: That's sad.
SARAH: And then about two minutes later, we found out that he was not going to be in it, but it wasn't as bad as it could have been, because she only found out two minutes before that he was going to be in it.
KAYLA: Oh, okay.
SARAH: So, it's not like she was looking forward to it for several weeks.
KAYLA: So, it was just like two minutes of excitement.
SARAH: She was like a two-minute high.
KAYLA: Okay, that's fine then. That was probably good for her in the end. Builds character and all that.
SARAH: The performances were fantastic. I'm fairly certain that the person who was in as the Scarecrow was the understudy. There wasn't a slip.
KAYLA: That’s annoying
SARAH: They just announced it at the beginning. And there were like several people who they had to name. And so, I don't remember for sure all of them. I think the Scarecrow was an understudy and he was fucking amazing.
KAYLA: I love that.
SARAH: Like you would never have any fucking idea. So many talented performers. What a delight. I have two small critiques, but I'll keep them to myself.
KAYLA: Okay. I love that.
SARAH: And they weren't about the performance. They were not about the actors.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: One of them was… it was a direction critique.
KAYLA: I see. Okay.
SARAH: But it's excellent and you should see it if you can.
KAYLA: Love that.
SARAH: That's my beef and my juice. Is that it?
KAYLA: Those are the things we do.
SARAH: Okay, you can tell us about your beef and your juice on our social media @soundsfakepod. We also have a Patreon, Patreon.com/soundsfakepod. If you want to give us your money for this chaos, you can do so there. We have a new $5 patron. It is Tom S. Thank you, Tom. Tom, you're the best. The best S.
KAYLA: I love Tom. Love Tom.
SARAH: We have really bad puns today, I’m so sorry
KAYLA: Yeah, we should shut the fuck up. Sorry, that was harsh
SARAH: Shut the fuck up Friday.
KAYLA: That's a good one. I want to start telling that to my coworkers when they try to talk to me on Fridays.
SARAH: Oh, yeah, that's from the Golden Ratio podcast
KAYLA: I love that
SARAH: Where they say never talk to the cops. So, it's always shut the fuck up Friday.
KAYLA: I'm going to start using that.
SARAH: Like if the cops ask you a question, it's shut the fuck up Friday.
KAYLA: I'm going to start using that.
SARAH: Anyway
KAYLA: I love that.
SARAH: Um, our other $5 patrons are Rebekah Monnin, Scott Ainslie, Sophia P. Tall_Darryl and Vishakh. You're all great. You're lovely. We appreciate you.
KAYLA: I love you also.
SARAH: Okay. I said we.
KAYLA: I love you. Me.
SARAH: Okay.
KAYLA: I love them. Me.
SARAH: Our $10 patrons who are promoting something this week are Alyson who would like to promote Arden Gray by Ray Stoeve, Ani who would like to promote, the importance of being kind to yourself and others, Arcnes who would like to promote the Trevor Project and Benjamin Ybarra who would like to promote Tabletop Games. Our other $10 patrons are Celina Dobson, David Harris, Derick & Carissa, Elle Bitter, my Aunt Jeannie, Kayla's dad, Maff, Martin Chiesl, Parker, Purple Hayes, Barefoot Backpacker, SongOStorm and Val. Our $15 patrons are Ace who would like to promote the writer, Crystal Scherer. I got to slow down every time I get there. Kayla looks so forward to that. Our $15 patrons are Andrew Hillum who would like to promote... Oh, we already started. But Andrew Hillum would like to promote The Invisible Spectrum Podcast, Dia Chappell who would like to promote Twitch.tv/MelodyDia, Hector Murillo who would like to promote Friends that are supportive, constructive and help you grow as a better person even when you're sleepy on the pod. Nathaniel White who would like to promote NathanielJWhiteDesigns.com. Kayla’s Aunt Nina who would like to promote katemaggartart.com.
KAYLA: Wait, I have a note about katemaggartart.com.
SARAH: What?
KAYLA: My cousin Kate Maggart, gross, her name is Katie. I'm not calling her Kate. I don't care what her professional name is. Anyway, her website is katemaggartArt.com. She recently had a very beautiful painting that was at a show in Detroit but it didn't get sold. And so, she's selling it on her website now and it is a gorgeous painting. And am I thinking about buying it myself even though that's probably financially irresponsible? Yes.
SARAH: I want to see it. I want to look at it right now
KAYLA: So, there are boobs. Content warning, there are boobs in the paintings.
SARAH: There are boobs
KAYLA: If you don't want to see a boob, don't look at it. So, if you're interested in buying art from a very amazing artist, then you should check that out.
SARAH: Well, that is nice. They're tasteful boobs.
[00:50:00]
KAYLA: They are tasteful boobs. It's nothing crazy, but there are boobs. Just wanted to warn you. Anyway.
SARAH: And Schnell who would like to promote accepting that everyone is different and that's awesome. Our $20 patrons, our Dragonfly, and my mom who would like to promote the fact that it finally stopped raining in LA.
KAYLA: I love that.
SARAH: My mom… because my mom is visiting, they're still here, and it was raining. And my mom was like, “what the fuck?” Well, she doesn't say that.
KAYLA: She doesn't say that, she doesn't say that.
SARAH: But she was like, “I left Michigan to come to this place and it's raining.”
KAYLA: Come to this place.
SARAH: I live in a city. Thanks for listening, tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.
KAYLA: Until then, take good care of your cows.
SARAH: Okay.
[END OF TRANSCRIPT]