Sounds Fake But Okay

Ep 214: On Being Biromantic Demisexual

May 01, 2022 Sounds Fake But Okay
Sounds Fake But Okay
Ep 214: On Being Biromantic Demisexual
Show Notes Transcript

Hey what's up hello! As some of you noticed, Kayla came back from our hiatus with a fancy new intro. Today, we talk about the difficulties of figuring out your romantic identity when you're already on the asexual spectrum.

Episode Transcript:


Follow: @soundsfakepod    


Support the show


SARAH: Hey, what’s up, hello. Welcome to Sounds Fake but Okay, a podcast where an aroace girl, I’m Sarah, that’s me.

KAYLA: And a bi demisexual girl, that’s me, Kayla. 

SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don’t understand. 

KAYLA: On today’s episode: being bi and demisexual? 

SARAH and KAYLA: Sounds fake but okay 

(intro music) 

SARAH: Welcome back to the pod! 



KAYLA: (sing-song) Welcome back to another late night recording. 

SARAH: (sighing) We’ll get into why this didn’t happen 45 minutes ago in the beef and juice section. 

KAYLA: I’m so sleepy. 

SARAH: (sighs) So, let’s get moving and grooving. Kayla, what are we talking about this week? 

KAYLA: This week, by popular demand, and by that I mean a couple people noted my changed intro and were like “are we just not going to acknowledge this?” 


KAYLA: We’re talking about the concept of being bi and aspec, through –.

SARAH: Invisible in two different ways. 

KAYLA: In two directions. Yeah, because as you may have noticed, my intro has changed. This is my 4th change. (laughing) I just realized that.


SARAH: No, your 3rd change, your 4th intro. 

KAYLA: Yes, this is the 4th different I’ve intro’d myself on the podcast. 

SARAH: Mine’s never changed.

KAYLA: Must be fucking nice dude. 

SARAH: Yee haw. Kayla, you are running this week, because – . 

KAYLA: (laughing) I know. 

SARAH: Because it’s your thing. 

KAYLA: I know. 

SARAH: Tell me more, tell me more. 

KAYLA: So for those of you who have not listened to the entire discography, 

SARAH: Bless your soul, that’s probably the way it should be. 

KAYLA: Yeah, someone commented on our TikTok the other day

SARAH: (whispering) I saw that.

KAYLA: and was like “I just listened to episode 1” and I was like “why would you do that?” 

SARAH: Why would you start with episode 1?

KAYLA: Yeah. 

SARAH: It’s not a serialized podcast, you can start wherever you want. 

KAYLA: It doesn’t have to be. Well, except for someone who was listening to it in order and then jumped to last week’s episode and was like “when did Kayla change her intro” 

SARAH: I have a friend who was trying to listen from the beginning, but it was taking her so long she just gave up and listens to them as they come out. 

KAYLA: That’s fair. That’s a lot of episodes.

SARAH: So she won’t know – Hey, hey, you know who you are. You won’t know all of the things I said to you in the intervening episodes. 

KAYLA: Wow, that’s sad. 

SARAH: You’ll have to find out. I do address her many times.

KAYLA: You’ll never know. She’ll never know. 

SARAH: Never know. 

KAYLA: Anyway, 

SARAH: Anyway, bi demi! Demi bi! 

KAYLA: Yes. So when we originally started the podcast, I was identifying as straight. My intro was like “me, a straight girl” and then it was “and me, a demi straight girl.”  And I think, I never acknowledged it but people noticed that over the summer(?) 

SARAH: Fall maybe? 

KAYLA: Last summer or fall, I dropped the straight part, and was just like “and me a demisexual girl” then we came from break and I said “bi?” – I don’t know, I’m trying to remember if I ever acknowledged it. 

SARAH: I don’t think it matters, for the purposes of this podcast. 

KAYLA: It doesn’t. I’m just trying to remember. 

SARAH: You want to go to bed. 

KAYLA: I do. 

SARAH: And I want to eat dinner. 

KAYLA: Yeah. We have to do this. 

SARAH: So we both have reasons to not get stuck talking about stupid shit. Let’s keep going!

KAYLA: The energy of this one is going to be bad. Anyway, yes, I started, as many of us did during quarantine, just so much more introspection, so much more watching of TikTok, and so much more just hmm– 

SARAH: Hmmm. 

KAYLA: Hmm, are we sure I’m straight? But it took me, I think, I don’t know. It took me a lot of the same struggles as it took to come to terms with my demi-ness. 

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: I was just like I don’t feel like figuring this out, and I don’t feel like thinking about it. Read more about this in our upcoming book. 

SARAH: Okay. 

KAYLA: Where there’s like a whole chapter about it. But I think it was especially hard trying to figure out if my romantic orientation was anything other than straight while being demisexual, because – 

SARAH: Mhm. 


KAYLA: Because it was kind of like “Well, how am I supposed to know?”  

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: Because from what I understand of how an allo queer person would go about things, is it just seems easier to me. And maybe – 

SARAH: Well, the way I understand it is for most people who experience both traditional romantic and sexual attraction, it’s not like they’re like “oh yeah, the sexual attraction is very obviously first” 

KAYLA: True. They don’t have to parse apart the romantic and the sexual. That’s fair.

SARAH: Right, and because romance and romantic attraction is a little bit harder to quantify than sexual attraction, if you’re only experiencing one of them, or at least one of them until you reach certain circumstances, it can be hard to figure out what you’re experiencing, which is true of anyone who is on the aro spectrum as well. 

KAYLA: True, yeah. Growing up as a woman, it was never a second thought to me that I was attracted to men, because it was assumed to be the default. 

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: Whether I was sexually attracted to them or not, it was never a second question because I was raised to be like “this is what it means to be friends with a guy and this is what it feels like to have a crush on a guy” 

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: I just grew up kind of figuring that out because it was what was supposed to happen. 

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: And because I’m not aromantic, I guess. Because I can’t imagine you figured that out the same way. 

SARAH: Yeah, I mean, I just had very different experience because I’m just like “I don’t have any of it hahaha” 

KAYLA: Right. 

SARAH: You have double. I have less.


SARAH: So I make up for your part. 

KAYLA: I don’t know. I feel like I’m a good example of sexuality being fluid because I feel like a lot of allo queer people will look back and be like “oh yeah, I definitely had a crush on this girl in middle school” 

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: Or like, this character. I don’t know that I’ve always been bi. I feel like in the same way that a lot of aspec people realize that gender doesn’t matter to them as much when they learn more about the queer community, and just how things work.

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: I feel like the more ingrained I get into the queer community the more I think that I just don’t care about the gender in terms of who I’m attracted to, you know what I mean? 

SARAH: Yeah. It’s been interesting to me because recently a tweet has been going around in the circles of BTS stan Twitter I operate on, which is like “when did you know that you were queer?” and because all of army is gay as fuck, (laughing) most of my mutuals are queer. 

KAYLA: As they should be. 

SARAH: And it’s been really interesting reading the different responses. There was one person that was like “I knew I had a crush on a girl when I was six” and then there was another person that was like “you know, I was in denial for a long time. I didn’t really realize that I was attracted to women until I was 24, and I didn’t come to terms with my non-binary-ness until I was 30” and it’s just like, shit’s wild out there. I don’t really know what the point of this was other than to – 

KAYLA: But it’s different for aspec people, and we talk about this in the book as well. 

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: That it’s so much more internal. As an ace person, you can’t look at someone and say “as a woman, I’m attracted to a woman. Strange” As an aspec person, you have to be like “It’s interesting. I’m not attracted to anyone”

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: “what’s going on here?”

SARAH: Which is why for me, I didn’t realize I was aspec until I was older, relatively speaking, like 18. Not because I had some big revelation then but because I was like “Huh. Still hasn’t happened yet. Interesting” 


KAYLA: Mhm. For me, I almost feel like it’s a similar thing. It was a slow – 


KAYLA: It wasn’t like “oh  a woman.” It was a slow realization of I don’t know if my attraction cares anymore. 

SARAH: Yeah, Kayla, who was your gay awakening? I bet it was me. 

KAYLA: (laughing) It was myself. But that’s the other thing too. I’m in a long-term relationship, right? 

SARAH: Mhm. 


KAYLA: And I’ve seen other people talking about this on TikTok, like being in a long-term relationship with a man and then trying to figure out if you’re bi. It’s like “what am I going to do about it?” 

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: It’s not like I’m going to –

SARAH: It’s not like you’re going to change your actions. 

KAYLA: Right, exactly. If I was in an open relationship, that would be one thing. In a monogamous relationship, it’s not like you’re going to go out and “oh I’m at a bar” and all of a sudden I’m hooking up with a girl and it’s like “oh, interesting”.

SARAH: Oh. Interesting.

KAYLA: First of all, I’m in a long-term relationship, so I’m not trying to go out and experiment. That’s not something I’m interested in. 

SARAH: Well, that mirrors your experience when you were first figuring out your demisexuality, because you were like “well, I’m in a committed relationship. It doesn’t matter at this point.”

KAYLA: True, and to be honest, I do think that is probably the conclusion I would have come to with being biromantic, if it were not for the book. 


KAYLA: Because in writing the book, there’s like a specific part in it where we’re like “yeah, Sarah is aroace” and “Kayla is” and in the original writing we said “Kayla is straight and demisexual”


KAYLA: And the longer it went the more uncomfortable that made me, which is also why the intro changed, just to take out straight at first.

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: My first step to it was that I wasn’t quite ready to say I was biromantic because I was feeling a lot of impostor syndrome about it, I was having a lot of questions to which our friend Perry, who is bi, was like “Kayla, straight people don’t ask these questions” 


KAYLA: But the longer I went, the longer I was like “I don’t want it to be wrong in something that we publish”. I don't want to look back on this years from now

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: and have this published piece of work be wrong about me. 

SARAH: Well not necessarily wrong, but not represent your truth at the time of publication. 

KAYLA: Right. Right. Because as I said, I think there was a time in my life where I was truly straight. I feel like now people are going to be mad that I’m saying that, but also sexuality is fluid and like – 

SARAH: I mean, even – 

KAYLA: And it can straight up change. 

SARAH: Even – straight up, haha – even I have trouble with that sometimes when people will be like “I believe I was this and now I’m not.” The gut feeling is to be like “well that’s not how it works,” but like nah, fuck that shit. Who cares how it works? It works however it works. 

KAYLA: Yeah. I mean, I don’t know how it works, but all I can say to you is that for the first many years of my life, I did not experience that way of viewing women, I guess. 

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: Like, I did not view women as a romantic or sexual option. 

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: You know what I mean? I don’t know. 

SARAH: Yeah. No, I do know what you mean. 

KAYLA: That’s all I can tell you. I don’t know how it works, but that’s all I can say about my experience. 

SARAH: Nobody knows how it works, is the thing. People will pretend they know how it works.

KAYLA: Please don’t come for me, it’s just what I’m saying about my experience. 

SARAH: Also, please don’t come for me either. What did I do? 

KAYLA: Come for Sarah, but not for me.

SARAH: (laughing) No!

KAYLA: What was I saying? 

SARAH: I don’t know. 

KAYLA: I don’t know. Anyway. 

SARAH: Women hot. 

KAYLA: Yeah, true. 


KAYLA: I forgot, so now we’re just going to change gears, but the reason we wanted to talk about this on an episode, is because I feel there’s such a particular difficult with figuring out if your romantic orientation is anything other than straight while also being aspec. 

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: Because it’s like, what are you going to do about it? 

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: Even if I was not in a committed relationship, how, when being demisexual, you don’t have that instant understanding of attraction the same way an allo person does. 

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: So it just makes that whole process of questioning so much different and so much more difficult in a way that would be different if you knew you were bi first and then realized you were demi, you know? 

SARAH: Right. 

KAYLA: There’s something particularly difficult about that order

SARAH: Going the other way. Yeah.

KAYLA: Yeah. 

SARAH: Yeah, I mean that’s just the aspec experience, where it’s like other people are saying that they experience this and so should you and you’re like “Am I? Am I not?” There’s literally no way to know for sure, right?

KAYLA: Yeah. 

SARAH: You can’t be in someone else’s shoes and know exactly what they’re feeling or experiencing, so the questioning experience for anyone who’s aspec in any way, whether that’s arospec, acespec, you know, it’s…



SARAH: At the end of the day, it’s just you making a decision about yourself.  And that’s true of other identities, of course, too. At the end of the day, you’re the one who decides whether you’re bi or you’re pan. You’re the one who decides whether you’re straight, or, you know what I mean? 

KAYLA: Mhm. 

SARAH: There are less distinct lines of evidence of this makes you gay, this makes you bi. With aspec identities it’s like (makes questioning sound) 

KAYLA: Yeah. It makes me appreciate even more the way that aspec people especially – like, I know anyone can have difficulty differentiating between friendship and romance – 

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: but I think that’s particularly prominent in aspec spaces. 

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: But it makes me understand that even more. I feel like I see bi women and lesbian women, whatever, talk about that all the time, like “how do I know if a girl is flirting with me or trying to be my friend?” or whatever.

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: I feel like I understand that even more because, like I said, growing up being what’s it called? Socialized. 

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: Being socialized as like you’re going to grow up and date and be attracted to men. 

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: I feel like you are kind of taught how to tell when a guy is flirting with you, taught how to tell what’s a friend and what’s whatever. 

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: For me, I’ve never even had that many guy friends in my life. Most of my friends have been women, and it makes it even more difficult because, I don’t know, all women are nice? 

SARAH: You’re not trained to look for that. 

KAYLA: Exactly, yeah. 

SARAH: Because it’s not seen as a viable or expected option. You’re not trained to look for it, and you know, women interact with women differently than they interact with men. Women interact with non-binary people differently than they interact with men, and… (sighs). And you code switch, right? When you’re interacting with a woman, it’s a lot more of an “I get you” situation, where it’s like we’re in the same boat, we’ve experienced some of the same shit, even if obviously many things in your experience that could very different, but you know, there’s whole woman to woman thing. 

KAYLA: Yeah. 

SARAH: Like an I get you and you get me. 

KAYLA: Yeah, like the whole women’s bathroom at a bar, you know? 

SARAH: Exactly. And so, if you are programmed to view that as just women being friendly, then maybe someone could have been flirting with you for five years running and you had no fucking clue. (laughing) 

KAYLA: Yeah. 

SARAH: Because you weren’t prepared to think about it that way. Whereas if it were a guy, you’d be like “oh my god, this guy is hitting on me so hard,” you know what I mean? 

KAYLA: Mhm. Well that’s the thing, in kind of questioning, I tried to put myself in the mental scenario like “okay, say Dean and I broke up. Would dating women be an option on the table for me?” 

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: Like when I started dating again or whatever. 

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: And in my mind I was thinking to myself though, I was like “how does that work though?” because by definition, demisexuality is you do not have sexual attraction to the person until you’re emotionally bonded, and I was thinking to myself “I’m emotionally bonded with so many women” 

SARAH: Mm, yeah. 

KAYLA: So what is it that makes it different? 

SARAH: Right. 

KAYLA: That’s the interesting thing, and I could say that about the men in my life too. There are men in my life who I am emotionally bonded to that I am not attracted to.

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: And it’s the weird nuance of it being emotionally bonded but in a romantic way, or in a more committed way, not just in a friendship way. 

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: But I feel like for me, because again I was raised to be attracted to men, I was more used to that switch happening. 

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: So in my mind when I was thinking okay, what would happen if in this imaginary scenario where I was trying to date women or whatever, I was like “How would I even know?” I would have to go into the situation being like “okay, this is not a girl to be friends with, this is a girl to try to date”. 

SARAH: Right. 

KAYLA: But that’s like, not how I go into every situation with a man. It’s very bizarre. 

SARAH: Women are taught to be on guard with men. 

KAYLA: True. 

SARAH: In terms of them being sexually and romantically interested in you, and – 

KAYLA: That’s true, you are taught to expect going into a situation with a man – 

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: Even if it’s friendly, they could always want to turn it into something more. The opportunity – 

SARAH: Absolutely. 

KAYLA: The threat of romance and sex is always there. 

SARAH: (laughing) Always there. 

KAYLA: But then – 

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: You’re right, that isn’t there with women, because that not what we’re raised to expect – 


SARAH: Exactly. Also, just because men are “supposed” to pursue women or whatever. If it’s a non-traditional pairing, it’s a little bit less clear who’s “supposed” to go after who, so it could be they’re hitting on you, but you just think they’re being friendly, because you don’t consider they would be hitting on you because you’re not taught to be on guard with them because you’re not taught to expect they’re flirting with you because of heteronormativity. 

KAYLA: True. It’s made me think a lot of thoughts about how demisexuality works as well.

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: Because there are some demisexual people, it’s a spectrum, you know? As things are. There are some people that are like “I have to be friends with someone for two years before that attraction ever forms” 

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: And for me, that was never the case. I have had boyfriends in the past who I met on a dating app, and they were a proper stranger, and then the emotional bond formed, but it didn’t take years or anything like other demisexual folks. 

SARAH: I just had the best idea – 

KAYLA: I can’t wait. 

SARAH: – for an aspec RomCom. 

KAYLA: Give it to me right now. 

SARAH: Demisexual person. 

KAYLA: Mhm. 

SARAH: They have a really good friend, who’s like unrequitedly in love with them and has been for so long. 

KAYLA: Mhm. 

SARAH: Demisexual person is the kind of person who they need to have known someone for a really long time before they start feeling that connection, and so the one person is like “you know, I have accepted that this is just our relationship  and it’s just going to be platonic, and that’s okay” 

KAYLA: (gasps) And then they start dating someone else. 

SARAH: Jesus. I’m just (laughing) – And then they’re like “I’m going to move on with my life,” but no, you’re right, that adds more conflict if they start dating someone else.

KAYLA: You have to have the whatever act conflict in every RomCom. 

SARAH: Oh yeah, you need the angst. 

KAYLA: You get so close and then there’s a time for fighting 

SARAH: And then they start dating someone else, and then around that time –  

KAYLA: And the demisexual person is like “why am I so jealous?” 

SARAH: And that’s when the demisexual person starts to realize that they have in fact – oh this would be even better if they were demiromantic. 

KAYLA: Mm, both. 

SARAH: Both. I think they should be both. 

KAYLA: (laughing) Demi across the board. 

SARAH: And then they’re like “wait, oh no” 

KAYLA: And now they’re dating this person. 

SARAH: Yeah! And then the other person is like “Do I have a chance with you? But I’m dating this person” and then they break up with that person, and then they get together, and then they live happily ever after and they adopt a bunch of dogs. 

KAYLA: This is an excellent story is a train that’s cheering for you. 

SARAH: I’m calling dibs on it, because that’s how copyright works. 

KAYLA: Yeah, no one write that. 

SARAH: (laughing) That’s how intellectual property works. 

KAYLA: Doesn’t it, kind of? 

SARAH: You know, 

KAYLA: We have this on record. If anyone made this movie, we could go to a lawyer and point back to this, and be like “mm, sus?” 

SARAH: Little sus though. 


KAYLA: Anyway, no one steal Sarah’s movie, it’s really good. 


SARAH: I’ve never written, like intentionally written a romance A-plot outside of the confines of FanFiction. 

KAYLA: Yeah. 

SARAH: I wonder what that would be like. 

KAYLA: You should give it a try. I would like to see it. 

SARAH: Inspired by Alice Oseman. 

KAYLA: Someone on Twitter, I think it was, was like “yeah, most of the smut in fanfic these days was written by aspec people” and I was like “interesting”

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: Good to know, I love that. 

SARAH: I know of a lot of people who discovered they were aspec because of fanfiction. 

KAYLA: Yes. 

SARAH: Which is a really interesting thing. 

KAYLA: Someone emailed us recently that they wrote their college essay about the intersection of fanfic, like fandom and asexuality, because that’s how they realized they were ace, through fandom. 

SARAH: Did they send us this essay? 

KAYLA: (laughing) I don’t know.

SARAH: I want to read it. 

KAYLA: (laughing) I don’t know if they would. 

SARAH: Send me your academic works. 

KAYLA: They also sent it a long time ago, and I just answered the other day, so I don’t know. 

SARAH: I’ll peer review them. I’m your peer, and I will review. 

KAYLA: (laughing) That is not how peer review works, but okay.


KAYLA: Okay. 

SARAH: Anyway. Where are we, where have we been, what? 


KAYLA: Where were we? 

SARAH: Where did you come from, where did you go?

KAYLA: Where have we been?

SARAH: Where did you come from, cotton eyed Joe, a song about STDs. You know, this is off topic, but up until recently, there were a number of billboards in LA, one right by my Chipotle, that were for free…STD testing. 

KAYLA: (laughing) free STDs. 

SARAH: It was for free STD testing and the approach they decided to make was to show a person rolling dice and just say: “sexually risky?” 

KAYLA: Did you send me a picture of this? 

SARAH: Probably. 

KAYLA: Because this seems incredibly familiar. 

SARAH: It wasn’t just one. I saw them multiple different places. I was like “who, which PR person said this is the public health approach to take?” 

KAYLA: I guarantee you the person is like 50 or something. 

SARAH: They recently changed them so that now it is a condom, and it says something else. 

KAYLA: Good. 

SARAH: Anyway, I just have some questions about the public health communications PR approach to “sexually risky?” with dice rolling. 

KAYLA: Was there like, a company name on the billboard?

SARAH: There was a website that it directed you to, but I don’t remember what it was. 

KAYLA: Well, next time you see it, you should look it up because I bet we could troll LinkedIn a little bit and find the person who made that billboard. 

SARAH: “Sexually risky?” Like objectively, yes. It’s not like anything about that ad is wrong. It’s just weird. 

KAYLA: How would you make it better then? What’s your pitch? 

SARAH: No dice. 

KAYLA: Okay. Oh, that’s the billboard says “no dice”? 

SARAH: (laughing) No dice. 

KAYLA: (laughing) Okay. 

SARAH: I think the dice makes it seem like you’re just being – 

KAYLA: risky? 

SARAH: careless? 

KAYLA: Yeah, Sarah, it’s almost like that’s a synonym for risky. 


KAYLA: That’s so crazy. 

SARAH: There’s something about the connotation that just doesn’t work with me. 


KAYLA: Okay. 

SARAH: It seems like you’re looking down upon people who make those choices.

KAYLA: They are, that’s the point of the billboard. 

SARAH: When instead, we should be uplifting them and encouraging them to seek these resources. You know what I mean? 

KAYLA: Yes, now I understand your concern. 

SARAH: We don’t want them to feel bad about seeking those resources. 

KAYLA: You don’t like how negative it is.

SARAH: Yes. 

KAYLA: Okay, I understand now. 


KAYLA: I thought you were mad about how they were making it negative, and I was like it’s clear they’re trying to make it negative.

SARAH: Sexually risky? 


SARAH: Anyway, do you have anything else to say about your dem-bi-ness? 

KAYLA: No. I don’t know, I still don’t think I have anything fully figured out. The only conclusion…

SARAH: Who am I? 

KAYLA: … I really came to is that it didn’t feel right to call myself straight anymore?

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: But then I also had the thing of “what if I’m just faking it because I want to fit in with queer people” and then our friend Perry was like “straight people don’t say that” 

SARAH: I have a question for you which may trigger a crisis, I don’t know. 

KAYLA: Okay, great. 

SARAH: It may be too early, who knows. As a newly minted bi person, what are your thoughts on how you relate to the word bi versus pan? 

KAYLA: You know, I was thinking about that because I saw a TikTok about it. 

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: And it was someone basically explaining the difference, because I feel like when I was first learning all the terms, what I heard people saying was “oh pan is just bi but you don’t care about if someone is trans” 

SARAH: That’s not right. 

KAYLA: But that’s not right, because that’s actually just transphobic. 

SARAH: (laughing) Yeah. 

KAYLA: In the way that this person on Tik Tok is explaining it, is that as a bi person, you are attracted to 2 or more genders. 

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: As a pan person, gender literally doesn’t matter to you. When your attraction forms, gender has no part in it.


KAYLA: And for me it’s tough because, again, not interested in experimenting right now, but I could see myself being attracted, or attempting to date nonbinary people. 

SARAH: (laughing) I thought you were going to say attempting to be attracted to. 

KAYLA: Attempting to be attracted to, making the effort to be attracted to non-binary people, people other than just men and women. 


SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: But  for me, at least right now, I feel like a lot of my attraction is still rooted in gender. It’s like “Oh, look at that girl, she’s so pretty” or “oh, look at that girl, blah, blah, blah”, you know?  

SARAH: She’s pretty because she is a girl. 

KAYLA: Right. So to me, it still does feel like some of that attraction is rooted in gender, where from what I understand, when you’re pan, that’s not part of it at all. 

SARAH: You know, I think I like that definition, not that I’m the one who gets to decide how to define pan. I think I like that definition better than the one that I had kind of been operating on. The one that I had heard was bi means you’re attracted to two or more genders, but pan means you’re attracted to all genders, so some people who identify as bi, and some people who identify as pan, could have the exact same experience in the way that they feel attraction, by that definition. Obviously it’s different for every person who identifies however the fuck they want, the way you define it is the way you define it. I don’t fucking care, but for me, conceptualizing it, I think that understanding of it is helpful to me.

KAYLA: Yeah 

SARAH: Of like, bi is 2 or more and pan is “fuck that shit”

KAYLA: Right, because especially when you talk about bi as 2 or more, then you’re like “well, then what’s the difference?” 

SARAH: Exactly.

KAYLA: If pan is all and bi is 2 or more, what if someone is bi and all? 

SARAH: Right. 

KAYLA: So yeah, it did help me – that person who said that –  to conceptualize why people would make that distinction. 

SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: Like what in a person would be like okay this is why I’m calling myself bi and not pan. Obviously, neither of us are qualified to decide on the definitions or anything. 

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: But that is one that I’ve heard and I found helpful. And those are the reasons, sharks, I’m calling myself bi.


SARAH: That does remind me of the Schitt’s Creek “I like the wine, not the label” as a descriptor for pan, which I think aligns with that. 

KAYLA: Yes. 

SARAH: Like, the label plays no role in whether or not you want to drink the wine, right?

KAYLA: A bi person would still read the label. 

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: A pan person wouldn’t even read the label at all. 

SARAH: Yeah. They would be like “take this label off”. 

KAYLA: Take that little guy off. 

SARAH: Huh. Fruitful. Fruitful and fruity.


KAYLA: So true. Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t have anything else to say. I just, in questioning all this stuff, I very acutely felt the interaction between figuring out if my romantic attraction was different and being demi, and the weird challenges that came up, so…

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: I would love to hear if other people have had similar experiences, if they had the same transgression as me of realizing you’re aspec first and then something else.

SARAH: Transgression is not the word you wanted. 

KAYLA: Well, maybe it is.

SARAH: Transition. 

KAYLA: Who cares?

SARAH: (laughing) Transgression is not the word you wanted. 

KAYLA: Okay, moving on. I feel like it can’t be uncommon, because so many aspec people realize they’re non-binary, or not cis

SARAH: Yeah 

KAYLA: After realizing they’re aspec because they learn – 

SARAH: Yeah. 

KAYLA: – the aspec ways of viewing things, so I feel like it has to be common. 

SARAH: And if you’re trained into thinking that gender matters, and then you’re like “wait. Wait a minute, no it doesn’t, actually I’m pan” 


KAYLA: Who’s to say? 

SARAH: (sing-song) Who is to say? Great, delightful. Anything else you’d like to add? No? Great.


SARAH: On this podcast, we silence bi demi people.


KAYLA: (laughing) Not this, not the biphobia. So early. 

SARAH: Kayla, what is your beef and your juice this week? 

KAYLA: My beef is that my cat is currently trying to knock things over. 

SARAH: Hm. Are they at least good things? Like, interesting things? 

KAYLA: It’s like the take-out container that Dean’s miso soup came in, so you – 

SARAH: Is there still soup in it? 


SARAH: Okay. 

KAYLA: Maybe some loose chives. 

SARAH: I was going to say that’s a huge contributing factor. If there was still soup, that would be a problem. 

KAYLA: That would be a problem. I had another beef. (laughing) Oh. I was missing my favorite pair of sweatpants, which was difficult, because we live in a very small hotel. 


SARAH: Mhm. 

KAYLA: And there’s not many places where it could have gone, and I was blaming Dean because I thought that he had moved them from where they were hanging up, and then they went missing, so I was getting all mad at him, and then he just found them neatly folded on my pile of clothes. 


KAYLA: So my beef is that I looked stupid today.

SARAH: I think I lost my hairspray in Las Vegas.


SARAH: I also thought I might have lost my confetti, but don’t worry, my friend found it. It was in her car. 

KAYLA: Thank God. 

SARAH: Confetti is more important than the hairspray.

KAYLA: Well, 

SARAH: Hairspray can be replaced, confetti cannot. 

KAYLA: (laughing) So true. 

SARAH: Do you have juice? Did you say juice? 

KAYLA: My juice is Orville Peck’s album Bronco.

SARAH: Mm. Spicy. 

KAYLA: It’s incredibly good. 

SARAH: You know when I was a child, I knew someone who  – there’s a Western Michigan University, they’re the Broncos

KAYLA: Mhm. 

SARAH: And I knew someone who thought they were the Baroncos. 

KAYLA: What is a Baronco? 

SARAH: Well we asked them what a Baronco is and they were like “I don’t know, it’s a Baronco” 


KAYLA: I mean, petition to change the mascot 


SARAH: Anyway. A Baronco. 

KAYLA: It’s better. 

SARAH: My beef (laughing) 

KAYLA: I wonder what it is. 

SARAH: My beef this week is NFTs 


SARAH: Elon Musk, 

KAYLA: Oh, okay. 

SARAH: and Dave Chappelle at the Hollywood Bowl. 

KAYLA: (laughing) The trifecta.

SARAH: I think Dave Chappelle at the Hollywood Bowl is one of the worst things to have happened to humanity in the past 24 hours. It normally takes me 20 to 30 minutes to get home from work, depending on when I leave. Given the time that I left today, I left early, so that I could be home early, to do this podcast. Given the time, it should have taken me 25-30 minutes. It took me 50 minutes. Five zero. Because Dave Chappelle is playing at the Hollywood Bowl. For anyone who is familiar with the Hollywood Bowl, the parking situation is trash. It’s garbage. Everyone gets parked in behind everyone, and that’s the design. 

KAYLA: Yeah, that confuses me. What if someone wants to stay late, and then someone else is – 

SARAH: And the – 

KAYLA: What if there’s an emergency of a medical variety? 

SARAH: – entrance is directly next to the entrance to the freeway. 

KAYLA: They should fix that. 

SARAH: And (sighs). It sucks because the Hollywood Bowl is a really cool venue. So I was like “why am I fucking sitting here for so long? This is garbage” I kept getting passed by people on scooters, and also people on their feet. I was passed by a girl on a scooter, and then I saw her coming back the other way like 10 minutes later and I was like “girl, she’s been going back and forth” and I’ve just been sitting here, and she was wearing high heels on an electric scooter. Anyway, LA. Anyway, I was like “what’s happening” like oh, there’s something at the Hollywood Bowl, so I looked it up, and Dave fucking Chappelle. Who wants to see Dave Chappelle? Probably all the white normies I saw. That would explain why I saw so many white normies going to Dave Chappelle. 


KAYLA: (laughing) I hope no one listening likes Dave Chappelle. 

SARAH: He’s a transphobe!

KAYLA: I know. It’s another reason to hope they’re not listening. 


SARAH: You can think that he made a funny joke once, but that doesn’t mean he’s a good person. 

KAYLA: You don’t have to tell me!

SARAH: Anyway, fuck Dave Chappelle. He made me take almost an hour to get home from work. It took me like, 35, 40 minutes to go a mile and a half. I wanted to die. My juice is Heartstopper on Netflix. (clicking sound) 

KAYLA: Mhm. 

SARAH: Our Flag Means Death on HBO. (clicking sound) Both gay, one I expected, one I did not, and my third juice is free Coca Cola products. I haven’t really gotten any recently, but I’m manifesting. 

KAYLA: (laughing) Okay. 


SARAH: So, there’s that. What’s our poll for this week? You can tell us about your beef or your juice at our social media. That’s also where we have a poll. What’s our poll for this week?

KAYLA: Mm. I don’t know. 

SARAH: Have you watched Heartstopper?

KAYLA: Is that what you want our poll to be?

SARAH: It’s so good. I binged it in one sitting. 

KAYLA: I know you did. 

SARAH: Fun and gay, minimal angst, Alice Oseman, written by an aroace person, what a delight. Alice, I emailed you last week, email me back please. I know you’re busy, it’s okay. 

KAYLA: (laughing) I also emailed Alice today. 

SARAH: Well if she answers you, tell me. 

KAYLA: (laughing) Okay. 

SARAH: Because I need her to answer me. 

KAYLA: (laughing) I know. 

SARAH: For professional reasons. 

KAYLA: I know. What would you like the poll to be? 


SARAH: (laughing) I don’t know. It’s your episode, bestie. 

KAYLA: Mm. This is why I don’t claim episodes. I’ll come up with one. 

SARAH: Cool, you’ll get the mystery poll tomorrow on Instagram.

KAYLA: It’ll be a surprise on Instagram.

SARAH: @soundsfakepod. Grand. So, yeah that’s the… yeah. You can also support us on Patreon Our $5 patrons who we are promoting this week are Asritha Vinnakota, Bookmarvel, Brandon, Brooke Siegel, and Byron Rusnak. I’ve been enjoying having our friend Asritha on BeReal because –   

KAYLA: Yeah, she’s always doing the same thing – 

SARAH: – then I can see what she’s doing, you know? 

KAYLA: always just reading for law school. 

SARAH: Today, she was studying at a Starbucks, and she looked like an absolute fucking snack. Anyway, (laughing) does she even listen to the pod still? I’m not sure. 

KAYLA: I was on the phone with her the other day, and she said sometimes. 

SARAH: Okay. Well, maybe she’ll hear this. If she only listens sometimes, is she really going to get this deep into an episode? 

KAYLA: Probably not. 

SARAH: Anyway, our $10 patrons who are promoting things this week are David Nurse, who would like to promote the London Underground getting a better Lost and Found system and also the fact that recently Sarah, me, I saw a Tweet about a person saying that when they first moved to New York like 10 or 12 years ago, they were getting on a train, hurrying on a train as one does in New York because you know, city girl, like hurry onto a subway, and the doors were closing, that’s why they were hurrying, and they dropped their keys and their wallet.

KAYLA: Ooh. 

SARAH: And they were like “shit” because the doors were closing and they were like “Oh no, my keys and my wallet are going to get left at the station, I’m on the train” and some stranger picked up the keys and the wallet, and chucked it into the train. 

KAYLA: Oh my god. 


KAYLA: (laughing) Oh my god. 

SARAH: Like, threw it, full force, and then that person was able to get into their apartment that night. 


KAYLA: That feels like some New York shit. 

SARAH: Yeah. You know what it is? New York shit? Kind, but not nice. 



SARAH: Because that’s New York. 


KAYLA: Yeah. 

SARAH: Anyway, that’s just the story I’ve given you, David Nurse, because of your sweater. Derek and Carissa who would like to promote the overthrow of heteronormativity in support of Melody the hamster, my Aunt Jeannie who would like to promote Christopher’s Haven, Maggie Capalbo who would like to promote their dogs, Leia, Minnie, and Loki, and Martin Chiesl who would like to promote his podcast, If Everyone’s Special Then No One Is? Bestie, is this still what you want? You know Martin, I messaged you, but I did not check to see if you responded. Do you still want us to promote that? I don’t know, you can, I just – 

KAYLA: I feel like – 

SARAH: It’s been a while, you know? 

KAYLA: Martin said yes. Martin did answer you, and Martin said yes. 

SARAH: Well, okay, thanks for answering. I didn’t fucking check. 


SARAH: Our other $10 patrons are Arcnes, Ari K., Benjamin Ybarra, Changeling and Alex the ace cat, David Jay, Mattie, Potater Rosie Costello – Potater and Rosie Costello are two separate things, I said them weirdly – Barefoot Backpacker, and The Steve. Our $15 patrons are Andrew Hillum who would like to promote The Invisible Spectrum podcast,  Click4Caroline who would like to promote Ace of Hearts and her recent Instagram post, because she just looks very good, Hector Murillo who would like to promote friends that are constructive, supportive, and help you grow as a better person, Leila who would like to promote love is love also applying to aro people, Nathaniel White who would like to promote, Kayla’s aunt Nina who would like to promote, and Sara Jones, who is @eternalloli everywhere. Our $20 patrons are Sabrina Hauck. Merry Christmas from your parents! And, new and improved, bumped up, Dragonfly. 

KAYLA: The song!

SARAH: What’s Dragonfly going to promote this week? Dave Chappelle not being at the Hollywood Bowl. 


SARAH: Thanks for listening. Tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.

KAYLA: And until then, take good care of your cows.


(Outro music)