Hey what's up hello! This week we're talking about dating coaches. Are they a scam? What do they actually do? What does this say about late stage capitalism in the year of our Lord 2023?
Episode Transcript: www.soundsfakepod.com/transcripts/dating-coaches
Donate: patreon.com/soundsfakepod
Follow: @soundsfakepod
Join: https://discord.gg/W7VBHMt
Buy our book: www.soundsfakepod.com/book
Hey what's up hello! This week we're talking about dating coaches. Are they a scam? What do they actually do? What does this say about late stage capitalism in the year of our Lord 2023?
Episode Transcript: www.soundsfakepod.com/transcripts/dating-coaches
Donate: patreon.com/soundsfakepod
Follow: @soundsfakepod
Join: https://discord.gg/W7VBHMt
Buy our book: www.soundsfakepod.com/book
(00:00)
SARAH: Hey what’s up, hello. Welcome to sounds fake but okay, a podcast where an aroace girl, I’m Sarah that’s me
KAYLA: And a bi, demisexual girl, that’s me Kayla
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don’t understand.
KAYLA: On today’s episode, dating coaches
SARAH AND KAYLA: Sounds fake, but okay
(theme music plays)
SARAH: Welcome back to the pod!
KAYLA: Hello. Hi. Hello? Hi?
SARAH: Hi!
KAYLA: Hi. Hello
SARAH: Hi, hello, how are you doing?
KAYLA: Hi, how are you? It’s been so long
SARAH: It’s been so long. Has anyone joined a cult?
KAYLA: Yeah big cult day
SARAH: Yesterday was a big cult day for me
KAYLA: Yeah I’ve always been fascinated by cults, so has Sarah’s sister, but Sarah recently found some cult material online
SARAH: Well it’s not that I’m not fascinated by cults it’s that I haven’t really
KAYLA: Gotten into it
SARAH: Haven't really done the dive
KAYLA: yeah
SARAH: But then I saw a specific Tiktok
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: It's like how I recently a couple weeks ago so a couple tiktoks by a deaf girl about how she joined a korean cult. For me it's either there has to be that inciting incident
KAYLA: No everyone has their first cult I do feel
SARAH: I don't know that this is my first cult though
KAYLA: I don't know, I listen to a lot of true crime podcasts, not in the bad way. In the normal person way where I still have empathy and stuff
SARAH: Okay, thank you for clarifying
KAYLA: Well because some people are really weird about it, you know what I mean?
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And I feel like I'm chill, but they cover a lot of cults
SARAH: You know Adnan Syed?
KAYLA: Maybe?
SARAH: The original Serial guy
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: I was listening to a podcast recently, I don't know why this came up, it was nothing to do with the topic of the podcast.
KAYLA: Sure
SARAH: But they were talking about how there was some podcast that was like two lawyers?
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: Talking about the thing, because you know how everyone thinks he's innocent?
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: The two lawyers were like spelling out a case of like, actually I'm not sure he is
KAYLA: Mm
SARAH: And I just thought that was very interesting because the general consensus is that he's innocent
KAYLA: Yeah but then if it's from a lawyer... that is interesting from a lawyer perspective
SARAH: Yeah and they did a whole, multiple episodes just explaining everything and why they were like this is suspicious
KAYLA: Sus
SARAH: This is weird. Yeah
KAYLA: Tea
SARAH: Well because he got free but then they took him back
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Anyway
KAYLA: If you’re in a cult call your dad
SARAH: Unless your dad is also in the cult
KAYLA: This is a quote from a different podcast
SARAH: Okay well I...
KAYLA: If you're in a cult call your dad. But a lot of times if you're in a cult probably your dad
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Not a lot of the time but often if you're young and in a cult your parents probably are also in the cult. Anyway
SARAH: What are we talking about this week?
KAYLA: This is not a cult podcast, but if anyone has been in a cult and is willing to share
SARAH: Please let me know
KAYLA: But again, not in a weird way. I don't know
SARAH: You're not trying to start a cult?
KAYLA: No I'm just trying to say like...
SARAH: If you want to start a cult, it should've been 1969 and you should've been divorced 3 times.
KAYLA: Yeah. I need bigger hair if I want to start a cult, from what I've kind of seen.
SARAH: Well that's because of the secrets
KAYLA: Women that start cults. The secrets, yeah. Yeah.
SARAH: Oh there's a new season of the Dream that's coming out I just discovered this
KAYLA: The what?
SARAH: The dream? You know, the MLM podcast?
KAYLA: No
SARAH: Okay I've definitely talked about this to you and I’ve definitely talked about it on this podcast
KAYAL: I don't listen. I actually don't listen to you, so
SARAH: Season 3 of the dream is coming out and I'm excited because I'm going to wait until it's all out, and I don't even know what it's about but I'm excited
KAYLA: New season of Normal Gossip is coming out the 18th. I still haven't finished last season.
SARAH: It is?!
KAYLA: It is, I saw it on the gram. And when are they having us on? I've asked twice and they ignored my emails
SARAH: I remembered my juice
KAYLA: (gasps) Write it down. Stop everything. Write it down and stop everything. She deleted her beef because she was so mad she forgot her juice everyone.
SARAH: No I didn't want to think about my beef
KAYLA: Okay. Catharsis. Yeah, I know. Well you write that down, right now
SARAH: Yesterday I started drafting an email to send to the Normal Gossip people about reasons
KAYLA: Good
(05:00)
SARAH: we should be on their podcast
KAYLA: Yeah. I've already emailed them and they ignored me, which is fair. I'm sure they get a lot of emails
SARAH: I know but
KAYLA: But yours is going to be better
SARAH: Mine is going to be better because it has reasons. One of the reasons is we asked our moms and our moms said so. I already asked my mom, can you ask your mom?
kAYLA: Yeah I'll ask my mom
SARAH: Okay thanks
KAYLA: I texted my mom yesterday and she was like "I just started listening to an episode of your podcast, this is weird". Speaking of, I don't think we were talking about this last week, maybe the week before, but we were talking about how your dad has patents?
SARAH: (laughing) Yeah
KAYLA: For engineering. And my mother informed me that both she and my father also have patents and I just didn't know that. Because they're also engineers
SARAH: And Kayla has a patent on being the worst daughter
KAYLA: Worst daughter of all time. Yes, I do
SARAH: Great. If it makes you feel any better, my mom does not have any patents because she is not in a field
KAYLA: I don't know why that would make me feel better
SARAH: Where...
KAYLA: My mom's is in her maiden name, so
SARAH: Okay?
KAYLA: Just she told me that, so I thought I would pass that along. I just thought you might want to know
SARAH: Okay, it's been... we've... so, what are we talking about this week? We need to move
KAYLA: We have to get started. This week, I saw a TikTok
SARAH: Novel
KAYLA: I think last night? And it kind of just kept being in the back of my mind, and I was like what is happening? This week we're talking about dating coaches because --- here's how I came across this, and I have a lot of thoughts and feelings, so we're going to...
SARAH: That's what podcasts are for
KAYLA: Exactly. So it's this lady on TikTok @DateBrazen. I think her name is Lily. I want to start off by saying there's no hate to this woman, and we'll get into this more, but I think she has her own podcast. She obviously has a TikTok presence. Whatever, but she is an intersectional, feminist, dating coach. And I came across one of her videos. I'm trying to thing... it was like "Tips for" – she called it "In person dating strategies". Right now it's the second video that she most recently posted, so it's basically tips about how to meet people in person better, like strategies you can use to meet people in person rather than using apps or whatever
SARAH: Like to meet someone for the first time in person?
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Or like at the first meeting?
KAYLA: No, no like meeting
SARAH: Like finding people on the street
KAYLA: Yeah like if you want to meet your partner organically rather than on an app. These were like her tips
SARAH: Got it
KAYLA: And at first at her opening she's like oh I'm a feminist dating coach and I was like woah, woah, woah.
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: Why do we need dating coaches? This is very bizarre to me. Like I had an initial gut reaction of like, why would we be paying people...
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: To coach us how to date? It just feels kind of like...scammy?
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: It also feels like... I don't know. I've never been in the position where I've felt the need to spend money on that kind of thing
SARAH: I recently listened to the Normal Gossip episode with the orchid consultants
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: And that was a scam. So like
KAYLA: Yeah. Oftentimes, consultants are, I think
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Like when you're like I work as a consultant you're like that's actually...
SARAH: That was their whole thing because the dad in that story was also a consultant and so they were like how did he not know that the consultant was a scammer? Because he's also a consultant. Anyway
KAYLA: Something about me is I know people that started being financial consultants right when we all graduated college and I'm like... you don't know anything
SARAH: People from like, high school?
KAYLA: No like, people we went to college with
SARAH: Do I know them?
KAYLA: No
SARAH: Were they com majors?
KAYLA: They were like business/finance majors
SARAH: Were they Ross schools, or were they like econ majors?
KAYLA: I can't remember actually. It was like some of Dean's roommates
SARAH: Ugh, not the Dean's roommates
KAYLA: No they're lovely people. They're actually very nice people though
SARAH: But they don't know what they're talking about
KAYLA: I mean, I don't know exactly what this man's job is, but I know he went to one of those big firms and started working as a financial consultant right when we all got out of college, and I'm like what are you... who are you helping?
SARAH: Have you seen that guy on TikTok/Instagram who's like 24 and he works at some big corporate job, and he does like a fit check every day?
KAYLA: No
SARAH: And he's like very nerdy, but he does it with so much sincerity
KAYLA: Oh no
SARAH: Like he does like, he crosses his arms
KAYLA: Oh no. Are they good fits?
SARAH: They're like corporate America fits
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And he's like I'm wearing this because of this, but you have to, like it would be so easy to make fun of him, but you have to admire the genuine
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like the comments are actually mostly positive, at least the top comments are
(10:00)
KAYLA: Interesting
SARAH: Because they're like, you know what white boy? Good for you
KAYLA: I mean you do have to admire the confidence
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: If you're just going to boldly... I mean listen
SARAH: He's got to be on the spectrum I think, but...
KAYLA: I mean, aren't we all?
SARAH AND KAYLA: Aren't we all?
KAYLA: Anyway, so I'll get deeper into my thoughts as I get deeper into this lady's account, but what are your gut reactions to a dating coach? Hiring someone to teach you to date better
SARAH: My instinct is to say that's big silly
KAYLA: Mhm
SARAH: My instinct is actually not to say that's a scam, but then when I think about it I'm like no that's a scam. But a service like that always runs the risk of just failing completely, so like is that a scam?
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like you know?
KAYLA: Yeah. Because you can never guarantee results for something
SARAH: Right like if they try but fail, you could claim that's a scam, but maybe you're the problem.
KAYLA: Maybe you just suck at dating. Yeah
SARAH: It's just wild to me that people care so much about finding a partner
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Finding a partner on a specific timeline
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: that they would spend their hard-earned money, or maybe not hard-earned
KAYLA: Who's to say?
SARAH: Maybe they're a trust fund baby. But like they would spend their money on getting someone to help them find that partner. It's also interesting because I feel like that's implicitly aimed at people who don't have a wide social circle, in some ways
KAYLA: Mm, I don't know if I agree with that
SARAH: Because I think a lot of times people who have a bigger social circle will turn to the people around them for advice
KAYLA: Mm
SARAH: but I think if you don't have as big of a social circle, you might feel that you could garner a greater benefit out of this? And also if you don't have a very large social circle to begin with, You might be more inclined to try and find a partner, not just for the purpose of having a partner but to have like your person, you know?
KAYLA : Yeah I guess that's fair. I was trying to think about like, because I feel like a dating coach, or getting someone's help to improve your dating profile online, feels like it's becoming a more recent thing or popular thing and I was thinking about like why that is, and I feel like dating has obviously changed a lot over the years, like if you think about our grandparents' generation to our parents to now, but I feel like
SARAH: My grandparents met at a frat party
KAYLA: Well that's very modern but I feel like... but anyway, but you know what I mean
SARAH: It was actually very sweet
KAYLA: I know. I know it was, but I feel like with just like technology changing so fast, like I feel like things change faster now than they used to
SARAH: Oh yeah it's an exponential curve
KAYLA: Yeah so I feel like with dating and relationships you used to be able to get more advice from your parents, or you could model dating after your parents more, and so there was more passed down knowledge, but now the way we're dating is so different from the way our parents were dating that it's just not helpful anymore
SARAH: And the general dating pool is so much larger now than it used to be
KAYLA: Yes because it could be anyone
SARAH: Right because in the past it had to be someone in your town, maybe the next town over
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And you had to have mutual connections or a meet-cute, like those were your options. Like there was no other choice, but now it's like you can start dating someone who lives in Mumbai, and that also means you become a much smaller fish in a much bigger pond, and the pond is full of a lot of very small fucking fish
KALLYA: Yeah
SARAH: So it's two fold in that now, okay I'm in this big pond so I can be pickier, if I don't have to settle for someone in my hometown. I don't have to settle for someone who's maybe a little abusive, or like.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Or you know old school in that way, you don't necessarily have to settle for less than you deserve because there are so many other options, but at the same time, it's... because there are so many other options, it's hard to necessarily reach "the right one"
(15:00)
SARAH: or other people would be like "maybe in another universe I would settle for you, but in this one I won't. And so it's like a double edged sword, I guess. That's me thinking of it as an aroace, semi-objective...
KAYLA: No I think you're right. I've talked to friends recently about what dating is currently like and they said "yeah I could go on a perfectly nice date with a guy, no red flags, everything is great, I leave feeling that was a really good date I'd go out with this guy again," but then you're at home and you're laying in bed, and you’re getting a message from some other guy.
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: On the apps so then you're like okay that guy was great but what if this guy is better? Because there's so many options you're just always like looking for the next best thing, which seems very stressful
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: So anyway, I started looking at this woman's page, and at first my gut reaction was like, what are we doing here? But then I started watching some of her videos, and her advice was actually incredibly down to earth, and it felt also incredibly applicable to different parts of life, like applicable to just making friends or like general kind of like mental health or outlook. Like she had this one video that ended up going viral that was like she was talking about you know if you're feeling kind of hopeless in your dating situation, you feel like there's no one out there that's right for you, start noticing the little things in life that imply that the right thing could be out there for you, like if you see a cute stranger walking by, you say out loud to yourself "thank you, more please," which I think it's the same kind of mentality
SARAH: You grab them by the shoulders and you say more
KAYLA: More!
SARAH: And you say thank you, more please.
KAYLA: More please! No but it's the same philosophy as like writing down your gratitude so that you wire your brain to look at the positive more
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Because that's literally how your brain works, you can wire it to notice patterns
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: So her advice was like you see signs your dating life could work out and it'll help you feel less hopeless about your current dating life, which but I was like this is actually just good life advice.
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: So I don't know, it was very interesting just looking at her page and being like okay, I don't know, this doesn't feel very shallow stuff
SARAH: Yeah. I have a question. To me that still feels a little woo woo
KAYLA: But it's not, that's scientifically backed
SARAH: My next question is informed by that, okay?
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: It feels to me a little woo woo because other than seeing someone and being like, oh they're cute, I like this, more please whatever it is, like what sorts of things is she suggesting you consider to be a reason to believe... other than seeing someone who's attractive, what sorts of things should we be noticing? I'm struggling to come up with another thing
KAYLA: No yeah she did give other examples. Let me find the video. It was like... if you have... it was like if you have a little flirty exchange with someone, or you have like, I don't know let me I'm trying to find it. Where did it go? I don't know where it went
SARAH: Have you been gaslighting us this whole time?
KAYLA: It's incredibly possible
SARAH: What if you're this person? Is it pinned? Is that why you can't find it?
KAYLA: No, I found the video talking about the past video but now I'm trying to find... oh there it is
SARAH: Sometimes I can't find videos because they're pinned which I know is the opposite of the purpose
KAYLA: So a comment on the video said, seeing a man doing a service project, or volunteering, or helping someone in need that's the only thing I'd say thank you, more please to. So I don't know. I think it could be as simple as seeing traits in people that you are attracted to and being like oh the kind of person that I'm looking for is out there, or there are aspects of that person out there, you know what I mean?
SARAH: You just gotta frankenstein them together
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Into a scarecrow man, or woman, or nonbinary person. Agender. Either way they're a scarecrow
KAYLA: I don't know. The specific examples I don't know, but the philosophy of looking for positive things and hot wiring your brain, that is real. My point was, is that the advice she was giving felt more like therapy advice, and I started thinking about dating coaching more as therapy because I was like okay, if a lot of the struggles that you have with dating are you're feeling super hopeless, or you're like super anxious in certain situations
(20:00)
KAYLA: Then I could see the appeal of having an objective, outside person talk you through those things. Not like as a "you're dating wrong here's how to attract a man" but more like here's how to get comfortable in those situations
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And that did make it feel, start to feel like more legitimate to me
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: I also, I tried to put up a poll on my close friends story today of like would you ever hire a dating coach? A lot of people saw it and not many of my friends answered so
SARAH: I did
KAYLA: I should... Sarah did. So I should take all these people off my close friends story. So one of my friends did answer and she was like "is this not just what a therapist is" which I think is an interesting point of like, I do think this is almost just a hyper-specific type of therapist, if you use it in a certain way, you know?
SARAH: Right, yeah. But insurance doesn't cover it
KAYLA: I know, that is the thing, insurance doesn't cover it. But then I was trying to find real life examples of people using dating coaches because I want to see if people are saying this actually helped them or if they feel like this is a scam
SARAH: I feel like this is the 2023 version of a matchmaker
KAYLA: Yes, which we've done an episode on that
SARAH: We have?
KAYLA: Mhm. I recently intook the transcript for it, it was great
SARAH: Great.
KAYLA: Remember I was, we were someone named Juliet and we filled out a little profile but I spelled Juliet wrong?
SARAH: Yeah you did.
KAYLA: And I was kind of surprised. I was expecting there to be some vogue think piece of like "I hired 5 dating coaches and this is" like doesn't that feel like a Cosmo
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Or like a Vogue, or some journalist would've like done that, or like some video?
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: They haven't, so I don't know what we're doing, journalists
SARAH: Damn. Journalists of the world, get it together. This is the most important thing to talk about right now
KAYLA: (laughing) This is the most important news we have right now, please. Watch now like 3 months from now someone's going to do it, and it's going to be all my idea, and I'm going to get no fucking credit
SARAH: Deep breaths
KAYLA: Anyway. Deep breaths. So this is a post from a year ago in r/datingadvice and this person was saying I've just been really depressed about not having a girlfriend, and desperation overcame me, so I booked a consultation with a dating coach, and so they were saying their biggest concern is if they pursue this, they don't want a woman to feel betrayed by the fact that they had to learn this stuff or go to a dating coach. And so they were asking people what are your opinions, especially women, of men who seek professional help when it comes to dating, and there was actually... I was really, really interested in the responses, and it made me think about it again in a different way. Where people were talking about like, dating is at this point a skill, and there is a certain way to do it, and it is not a skill that we all naturally have
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And it is a skill that you need practice at, and some people are just going to need extra help
SARAH: And if the relationship that results is a healthy relationship, it's a good relationship, that all parties involved want to be involved in, does it matter how you got there?
KAYLA: Right, exactly, no. But it was just so interesting to me to see people talk about it in a more objective way about how this is a social skill, and it's something that we're all just expected to know how to do, or learn from our parents, even though they did it in such a different way
SARAH: Yeah. Well and people now have more freedom because you're a tiny fish in a gigantic pond, big big ocean, whole one ocean. One body of water
KAYLA: Big
SARAH: So many little tiny fishes
KAYLA: Mhm
SARAH: Sorry what? Brain not... brain not at full – maybe it is at full speed, maybe this is
KAYLA: I think it's perhaps too fast. Too fast
SARAH: Oh, because we don't have, again because little fish, big pond, and it's not as common these days for people to be like arranged marriages
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Or to have like a matchmaker or whatever, because that's less socially acceptable, people don't have those outlets to get help. Now to be clear, not everyone has an arranged marriage, or who is matched with someone, doesn't mean that that's what they wanted
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But there are some people who do find that they are benefitting from that
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And that's a little bit less socially acceptable now
(25:00)
SARAH: because you're like oh you're letting someone tell you what to do?
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And so I think this is just kind of a more modern take on how to get help
KAYLA: Yeah because I think that just as time passes, we have more and more freedom, if you're lucky, in how you date. It used to be like well your parents don't approve of this person, or your parents want you to go for this kind of, they want you to date a doctor, a lawyer, whatever, and I think if you're in a better situation, at least in the western world, you have a lot more say which is really good but also means that you don't really have any guidance on what you're supposed to be doing.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: This other comment was saying we have coaches in so many other aspects of life, like you have a financial consultant, you hire a personal trainer, you go to a dermatologist, you go to a nutritionist, you get a. mentor for your career
SARAH: You get fucking life coaches
KAYLA: Right.
SARAH: Whatever that means
KAYLA: I know people that have hired career coaches to help them with their resume and stuff like that. If you think about it, it is a very normal thing in life. I think the barrier or the initial ick, I suppose, is like caring... I don't think either of us can really empathize with caring so much about dating that you get to that point
SARAH: Empathize isn't the right word, but I don't understand it
KAYLA: Sympathize?
SARAH: No because that makes it seem like we don't care about people
KAYLA: No that's true because I do understand it it's just that I've never been there myself.
SARAH: I could not ever be in their shoes
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: I think for me part of the initial ick about it too, is that you don't see friendship coaches
KAYLA: Mhm
SARAH: Maybe there's one somewhere
KAYLA: I think that's a therapist. That's the thing is I think a lot of these things you work through in therapy. This is just a hyper-focused
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: Non-insured version
SARAH: Right so for me because I'm like friendship consultants don't exist, not really
KAYLA: Right
SARAH: So it makes me feel that a person who is seeking out a relationship consultant is... that implies that they're inherently valuing that type of relationship more than they're valuing a platonic relationship, and that may be a bit of a leap
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And that's just my aroace brain kicking back, and rejecting it, and being like no fuck you.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But that is what my brain does a little bit
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Is like oh you care about this thing so much that you're putting money into it but you won't put money into getting someone for your friend?
KAYLA: No I really do think it says something about society in general, especially as I looked more specifically into what this dating coach was saying I was like this is just therapy speak
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: If your product is just that you're selling is helping someone with their anxiety or hopelessness about dating, which is an incredibly valuable thing. If dating is a thing that's important in your life that you want to pursue, whether you're putting too much emphasis on it, whatever. That is something you could fully work through in therapy if you have a therapist, but I do think it says something that this has become a commodity and like is working in capitalism
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: I think it also says something about is it more socially taboo to go to a therapist versus to hire a dating coach? Like...
SARAH: Hm, that's an interesting thought
KAYLA: I do think it says a lot on the emphasis we are placing on needing a relationship so bad that you would hire, that a dating coach would be something that even exists. And again, I don't want to shame people that are doing that because I do understand the position of, especially if you're later in life, all your friends are married, you really want to be in a relationship, like I can understand that
SARAH: If you want to have biological children
KAYLA: Right
SARAH: Like literal ticking clock
KAYLA: Right
SARAH: That happens to people, literally
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: People will be like I need to get aaah
KAYLA: Which like I get because internally it could be something you really want and then externally there's the pressure of like everyone else is doing it, and it's expected in a very allonormative society, so I almost feel like sad but at the same point I don't want to judge people because it's not their fault
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: And it's okay to care about that if you know why you care about it so much
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: But I'm also like, do you know why you care about it so much?
(30:00)
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Have you ever thought to question like why this is such a desperation for you? You know what I mean? I don't know I feel like I'm in a weird place with it
SARAH: Yeah I just hope that people who would use a service like this would at least by the end of it be kind of self-aware
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Why they're doing it and why the felt the need to do it, and this again just bringing real therapy into it, but over the process being like okay here are the reasons why this is important to me but also here are the reasons why I shouldn't fucking care about any external factors
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But that's definitely bringing a full therapy, full aspec glasses approach into it
KAYLA: See that's the thing is on the other side I could totally see, and I feel like I've seen people do workshops for aspec people dating. I feel like Cody has done, Cody's been doing a lot of workshops on writing and stuff lately, and I feel like they've done one on dating when you're aspec, and I know we get so many questions about like how do I talk about being aspec with partners, how do I set up those boundaries? So to me it almost makes more sense for an aspec person or a queer person to use this type of service because like there are such unique challenges, so I don't know because then it kind of makes me feel, which makes me feel hypocritical because I'm like I could see an aspec person using that if they're finding a coach that is in aspec knowledge and they know what the fuck you're talking about
SARHA: Right but then in that same vein, it's like, well if we're saying this makes sense for aspecs to use, that implies that we think that allos just know how to do this
KAYLA: Right, it's also very telling I think of aspecs feeling the need to fit into a normative, dating culture when really we should, I mean ideally but there's like no way to actually do this, is to change how dating culture works
SARHA: Blow it up
KAYLA: You can't simply do that. So yeah it is almost like a dating coaches helping you figure out how to comfortably navigate
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: The dating culture rather than rethinking how it works, which is difficult because you as one person can't just like change how dating works. You can do things in your own life to change how you're dating, but you know. Ugh so complicated.
SARAH: If we just push Florida into the ocean. It's giving that
KAYLA: Mm. Interesting. Interesting
SARAH: We can't push Florida into the ocean. You gotta deal with Florida.
KAYLA: I mean it's... it'll be under the ocean at some point, unfortunately
SARAH: But it won't be pushed into the ocean, the ocean will –
KAYLA: No it'll kind of sink. Yeah that's true
SARAH: Anyway this is not a floridacast
KAYLA: No, god no
SARAH: Distracted us
KAYLA: So I'm feeling... I just I'm feeling very conflicted. Because I feel like in a lot of ways i can see the practicality of it, but the need to use it makes me a little sad
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: But also I fully get it, but I couldn't see myself using it. But also if I broke up with Dean and I really got to a desperate place, then yeah, probably. So I don't fucking know. I have no conclusions here.
SARAH: Yeah. My conclusions are I think this could definitely help some people
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I think it is not my place to judge people who do this, unless they're like a coach and they're like "the way to get a man"
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: "is to wear red lipstick" like no
KAYLA: Yeah no
SARAH: Fuck you
KAYLA: I think there's definitely people doing this in a way that makes sense that yeah
SARAH: In a sincere
KAYLA: Yeah there's not just old school cosmopolitans like
SARAH: Make yourself hotter
KAYLA: Here's how to be sexy. Yeah no. Because I feel like I had an initial gut reaction of like ew, why would you spend your money on this? But the more I think about it
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: The more I'm like no things are fucked up and I get it. Nothing makes sense
SARAH: It's just frustrating to me from an aspec perspective that romance and romantic partnerships are so prioritized that
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: there needs to be a mass movement, not that this is necessarily a mass movement right now but
KAYLA: No but like an industry
SARAH: Yeah but that there needs to be an industry to deal with it
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And I think that I struggle with that just because I want to blow up allonormativity and amatonormativity
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And as much as this may be helping individuals, it reinforces those normativities.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And I think that's why we're both kind of like... it's not even that we're on the fence it's that we're on both sides of the fence
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: Our body is cut in half
(35:00)
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: And half of our body is on one side and half is on the other side
SARAH: And I think that I struggle with that just because I want to blow up allonormativity and amatonormativity
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And as much as this may be helping individuals, it reinforced those normativities.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And I think that's why we're both kind of... it's not even that we're on the fence it's that we're on both sides of the fence
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: Our body is cut in half
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: And half of our body is on one side and half is on the other side
KAYLA: If a horse wore a fence
SARAH: If a horse wore a fence
KAYLA: would it be like this, or like this? Yeah because on the individual level I think it's great, but on the societal level
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: There is, it's just it doesn't feel great that this is where we are in capitalism or in like... you know? What kind of late stage capitalism are we in?
SARAH: I don't think there's fucking anything that from 10,000 feet as a social, societal change is going to feel good
KAYLA: No, yeah
SARAH: We live in a hellscape, so I think
KAYLA: We live in a society, that's for sure.
SARAH: Yeah, so I think – I live in a city and so does she. I live in a state, but you're in a museum
KAYLA: Yeah my mom lives in Ohio, but I live in the moment
SARAH: But I live in the moment
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: My mom does not live in Ohio.
KAYLA: My mom doesn't either
SARAH: Jungkook is in Kentucky.
KAYLA: Okay
(laughter)
KAYLA: Okay, right?
SARAH: I lost it again
KAYLA: Wow, I'm shocked. How did that happen?
SARAH: In conclusion, it can be good on an individual level, but on a social level it's bad
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Which can describe basically everything
KAYLA: Uh yeah. I would say that's...
SARAH: Except murder
KAYLA: True sister... well
SARAH: Like individual murder is not
KAYLA: What if it's in self-defense?
SARAH: Malicious, non-self defense murder
KAYLA: Okay, specifically
SARAH: I'm talking about first degree murder
KAYLA: Pre-meditated, yeah
SARAH: Yeah, yeah, yeah. First degree murder is bad but on a broad, social scale, so is genocide
KAYLA: Yep, got me there
SARAH: I think that would be an exception
KAYLA: Can't argue with that
SARAH: Absolutely fucking got him. Anyway, I think we should stop
KAYLA: I think that's it. I think we did it
SARAH: We've done it. We've solved everything
KAYLA: Yeah that's for sure. I'm definitely feeling less confused than when we came in.
SARAH: Oh yeah I've never felt less confused in my lifie
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Alright. What's our poll for this week? Are you confused?
KAYLA: I would like to ask would you hire a dating coach?
SARAH: Mm
KAYLA: No one on my close friends story answered this so I'm expecting y'all...
SARAH: 6 people answered is what you told me. You got 6 real friends
KAYLA: To pull through. Yeah I got 6 real ones. That’s true
SARAH: and I'm one of them.
KAYLA: Watch now everyone's going to answer tomorrow when it doesn't
SARAH: You're welcome
KAYLA: You're one of them. Even though I didn't need your answer
SARAH: Go off queen. Queen is me in this situation. So I'm telling you I need to go off queen
KAYLA: I will say one person voted yes, so
SARAH: Do I know them?
KAYLA: Um...
(bleep)
SARAH: Should I take that part out?
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Great
(laughter)
KAYLA: I think you should just leave a pause and then "should I take that part out? Yeah"?
SARAH: That's actually a very good idea. I will do that.
KAYLA: Yeah. I think that's perfect. That's the poll
SARAH: Oh right that's our poll
(laughter)
SARAH: I took my meds today.
KAYLA: Are you sure?
SARAH: I swear on my fucking life.
KAYLA: Because those voice messages you were sending me from your drive home say differently.
SARAH: They were unhinged
KAYLA: They were – I felt stupider listening to them.
SARAH: I'm special. I have special genes.
KAYLA: You are special.
SARAH: I've actually taken... I took Adderall on Sunday. I've decided I'm going to take Adderall on the weekends because I took it on the weekend, and I was productive
KAYLA: Wow that's crazy
SARAH: It's almost like it fucking works.
KAYLA: Almost like that's what the medicine is for. What the… who would've thought?
SARAH: I've actually taken it more consecutive days than I normally would have on a Wednesday
KAYLA: Well it's not helping right now, but that's okay
SARAH: I need more
KAYLA: I don’t think that – Okay, what does that have to do with me?
SARAH: I lost it
KAYLA: Okay so that was our poll
SARAH: Actually I know where it is. What's your beef and your juice this week?
KAYLA: My beef is this moment, right now.
SARAH: You know it's good that the actual episode of this pod didn't go super long because otherwise
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: This episode would've been 5 years long.
KAYLA: Because we had a long intro, long outro. What’s my beef and my juice. My beef is that I was at a convention for work all last week, and I had to talk for 3 days straight, and I be in like social
(40:00)
KAYLA: customer service mode. And I had to turn it on so intensely that in my dreams I was still working
SARAH: No
KAYLA: And I caught myself, as I was falling asleep, I nodded in and out and I was doing my fake customer service smile
SARAH: Oh no
KAYLA: and I felt myself doing it in my sleep like a horror film
SARAH: Oh no
KAYLA: The convention went really great overall, but also that was wild
SARAH: You weren't answering any of my texts and I was like "oh she fucking dead"
KAYLA: Yeah the first day we didn't eat anything
SARAH: Why?
KAYLA: I ate caffeine for breakfast, and then didn't eat anything until 4 PM
SARAH: Great
KAYLA: Don't do that. So yeah I was not answering anything from anyone
SARAH: I was just continuing to send you memes
KAYLA: I know
SARAH: And I was like I hope someday she comes up alive
KAYLA: And I did. And here I am. But now my throat really hurts, and my anoids? You know not your tonsils but your other things in the back of your throat?
SARAH: Sure. You're just quoting Cardi B. (whispering)
KAYLA: I know but I was just letting you know
SARAH: (whispering) Was that Cardi or Nikki oh they're going to come for me
KAYLA: I want to say Cardi
SARAH: I think you're right so I just fucked myself by bringing Nikki into this.
KAYLA: Yeah now the barbs are going to
SARAH: The barbs are going to kill me
KAYLA: The barbs are going to come for your fuckass wap
SARAH: jesus christ
KAYLA: Anyway, they're swollen and they hurt so bad. And doing this for an hour hasn't helped
SARAH: Yeah it's WAP because -- sorry it's Cardi because it's WAP with Megan and her
KAYLA: Yeah. Now you're bringing Megan into it. What are you doing?
SARAH: They love Megan. Megan has never done anything wrong in her life
KAYLA: I know but you bring the three of them into it and now all of the girls are going to be fighting about who's the best, and we can't do this.
SARAH: I saw a video recently of Megan sitting on the ground with like
KAYLA: Yes I saw this
SARAH: Was it the one butt twerk?
KAYLA: Yeah it was crazy
SARAH: She twerked with half her ass, it was so impressive
KAYLA: Yeah, she's wild. I saw her perform live
SARAH: Fuck you
KAYLA: And her titties were so good that her corset broke because her titties were too -- like it broke so early in the show
SARAH: Oh my god
KAYLA: And she was just walking around the whole time like my titties are going to fall out. They didn't unfortunately
SARAH: (laughing) Unfortunately
(laughter)
KAYLA: No titties were seen
SARAH: No titties
KAYLA: Anyway my juice is that it's getting cold here. It's chilly weather, which we love, and also I've been playing the Sims a lot. I'm in my Sims era
SARAH: Love that for you.
KAYLA: Thank you
SARAH: My beef is that they painted the superior tile black and I think that's wrong
KAYLA: So you said that in one of your voice messages, and I don't know what that means.
(laughter)
SARAH: Okay I'm trying to figure out how to say this in a way that does not give away my exact location
KAYLA: Okay that's fair. I know one of the business you live next to because it always shows up on the map whenever I look at your location.
SARAH: There is an establishment. Near me, I won't say exactly how.
KAYLA: Yeah, okay
SARAH: That has a big man on the roof.
KAYLA: Oh, this establishment. Yes I've seen this establishment before.
SARAH: That has two faces on it. That used to be white and they recently painted the building black
KAYLA: Oh no
SARAH: In Southern California?
KAYLA: That's a bad choice
SARAH: My juice that I forgot and then I remembered again
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: Was that I got my sister and my sister in law listening to Normal Gossip and then me and them were talking about it on my family zoom, which is never zoom anymore it's just a FaceTime, but we call it a zoom. And my mom was like "what?" and so then we got my mom to listen to at least one episode. It was are you... I don't remember what season it is so I don't know if you would have listened to this one or not
KAYLA: Who's to say?
SARAH: It's about... there is no good way to put this. It is about a vulva printed chair
KAYLA: I have not heard this one. I have not caught up to this one
SARAH: I got all of them to listen to that one. Well I got my sister and Amanda to listen to it and then they were like this is so unhinged that my mom was like I need to know
KAYLA: Have you listened to the lamp episode? The international trip lamp?
SARAH: Is this the southeast Asia one?
KAYLA: Where they go to multiple countries?
SARAH: I have not listened to this one, but there was one recently -- because my sister and her wife. So I've been listening in reverse order
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: Newest to oldest. My sister and her wife are rule followers
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: So they started listening oldest to newest
KAYLA: Yes
(45:00)
SARAH: So we're just kind of converging
KAYLA: Yeah. The one I'm talking about is an early one, so you might not have listened to it yet. But it is the one I think about –
SARAH: But they were talking about one like "Sarah have you listened to this one" and I think you may be talking about the same one
KAYLA: That one I think about most often
SARAH: Wow
KAYLA: I've retold the story to so many people.
SARAH: Goodness
KAYLA: Instead of making them listen I'm like I just have to tell you right now
SARAH: Wow
KAYLA: Because it is bananas. Anyway, great podcast when are they having us on?
SARAH: Everyone please
KAYLA: Everyone go bother them.
SARAH: @kelseymcKinney
KAYLA: If you've ever done anything for us, please god this
SARAH: Please don't harass @kelseyMcKinney. She's very nice
KAYLA: Not harass, but just like... you know
SARAH: You know, just
KAYLA: request.
SARAH: You know, request.
KAYLA: Request.
SARAH: Request and if you don't know normal gossip, you should. Don't should except for right now
KAYLA: But you should. But here's the thing, here's what I said in my email to them, which is that so much gossip revolves around dating. And both of us--
SARAH: That's my number one reason in my list of reasons they should have us on
KAYLA: I love to gossip. And I feel like you love a gossip too
SARAH: Because we have a very unique perspective
KAYLA: Because we're on the outside of everything and can never contribute, but then we can be objective, but then it's like I feel left out.
SARAH: Mhm
KAYLA: Anyway, that's my beef
SARAH: I just sent you the particular episode in question. I don't expect that you'll listen to it with any promptness
KAYLA: I won't
SARAH: I know, that's why I'm not expecting it.
KAYLA: I'm also like 3 months behind on your snapchats
SARAH: I've stopped sending you a lot of them
KAYLA: No! That's okay
SARAH: Because I knew that you were three months behind. I didn't want to contribute to that.
KAYLA: It's just that the more of them there are, the more overwhelmed I am, you know?
SARAH: Yeah. My other beef is that TikTok, the app must've updated or something because it used to be -- I'm the kind of person that I cannot stand having unread notifications. I have to get rid of them immediately. And sometimes that means opening notifications that I don't want to open yet because when I have notifications, I must. And it used to be where you could just open the app and they would go away
KAYLA: Mm, not anymore
SARAH: but in the past couple of days, I opened the app, I don't know if it read my mind and decided to fuck me over, but now you have to click on the notification.
KAYLA: Why don’t you just turn off the notifications for the app? Just turn the notification display off for the app
SARAH: Yeah I guess I could
KAYLA: Just do that
SARAH: Also I've mentioned this to Kayla, there's a person I met once who I tangentially know, who sends me so many TikToks
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And it's so overwhelming, and it's not that they're bad TikToks.
KAYLA: Just stop
SARAH: I don't know this person well enough for them to send me this many TikToks. And I never respond to them. And they still keep doing it.
KAYLA: Yeah. I think you should just turn the display off
SARAH: Apparently I have 23 TikTok notifications. Let's see how many of them... Oh only 4 of them are from this person
KAYLA: Let's see how many I have
SARAH: 8 of them are from my roommate. And 5 of them are from Miranda
KAYLA: Okay I have 99+ from you, 12 from someone else, 11 from someone else, 7 from someone else, 42 from someone else, 17 from someone else, and 99+ from someone else, and 1 from someone else, and 1 from someone else,, and 2 from someone else, and 2 and 3.
SARAH: But do you see this? I'm clicking and it's not going away
KAYLA: Oh that part. Yeah that part's just at 99+ forever for me
SARAH: And then as a result, it still shows up
KAYLA: Just turn the display off
SARAH: I really should
KAYLA: You should
SARAH: I should
KAYLA: It'll fix it all for you
SARAH: Now I'm not doing it
KAYLA: Well
SARAH: You can tell us about your beef, your juice, how much are they charging? Stop, no more
KAYLA: I don't know because she has one on one consultations and she also has other things
SARAH: And I'm sure the pricing isn't public. I'm sure you have to ask for it
KAYLA: I mean, I'll look while you do the patrons I'll do...
SARAH: Oh my god. Fuck this pod is going to be over an hour anyway.
KAYLA: And then she has a webinar
SARAH: I'm so sorry, Bagel.
KAYLA: You have to apply? I'm not applying for one on one coaching. What do I look like? Well I’ll never know.
SARAH: Okay. We have a patreon. Patreon.com/soundsfakepod. If you want to give us money, we will not coach you
KAYLA: God, no
SARAH: We will say your name
KAYLA: And really, what more can you ask for?
SARAH: Our $5 patrons who we are promoting this week are Rebekah Monnin, Scott Ainslie, Sofia P, Tall_Darryl, and Vishakh. I know that was like 6 or 7, but I got to the end of the alphabet and I wanted to just get all of them. And you know what, we appreciate all of you equally
KAYLA: Yes we do
SARAH: Our $10 patrons. We have a new $10 patron.
(50:00)
SARAH: It is Parker. Okay, first of all, huge shoutout to the last 3 patrons that have patronized
KAYLA: For following directions!
SARAH: For following directions and messaging us with what you want to promote. My apologies to Celina
KAYLA: Because we did not follow up on our end of that deal
SARAH: Correct. Because last week, I was like we have a new patron it's Celina, what do you want to promote? Celina had already messaged us
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And I didn't see it.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: So I'll just do Celina right now. Celina would like to promote the Entertainment Community fund to support striking workers, which I was like that's even worse that I fucked it up, because now the WGA strike seems to be ending
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Which is great news
KAYLA: Yeah but
SARAH: And it's less applicable, but SAG is still striking you should still support this podcast. Parker, I saw this before the pod, and I was like oh my goodness this is an incredible promotion, and Kayla was like what is it? And I was like I'm not telling you you have to live react
KAYLA: (sighs) And I already forgot. But now I'm ready
SARAH: Now I feel like I'm hyping it up too much. Are you ready?
KAYLA: Uh, yeah
SARAH: Parker would like to promote a fanfic they recently read. Would you like to guess pairing?
KAYLA: Like the couple? Is it us?
SARAH: No
KAYLA: I don't know
SARAH: Have you listened to the normal gossip --
KAYLA: Yes!
SARAH: Where they write fanfic about the podcast
KAYLA: I went into reddit about that one where people figured out what podcast, like who it was, and I was like damn that's the tea
SARAH: That one has a good ending and I won't spoil it.
KAYLA: Yeah that one's actually Bananas town
SARAH: The fanfic that Parker read was Tony the Tiger and the Grinch
KAYLA: No. Wait what's the... and Parker, because Parker was in the Discord earlier being like I just became a patron, what should I promote?
SARAH: And this is what they decided
KAYLA: And then there were a lot of suggestions and he was like I want to pick something cursed. And then they were like oh hehe I just sent the message I regret nothing. So they knew what they fucking did
SARAH: Okay there are 24 works on ao3
KAYLA: No, I can't. Patron exclusive episode where we read... that's terrible. Parker!
SARAH: Oh this one has multiple ships. The main ship is Barack Obama/Shrek
KAYLA: Tony the Tiger and the Grinch
SARAH: Parker you gotta tell us which pic it was. I need to know
KAYLA: I just... did you read the whole thing? Oh, Parker
SARAH: Ahhhh. I love it. This one the description is just Grinch breaks up with Tony the Tiger, idk what to tell you
(laughter)
KAYLA: Well. Yeah that seems about right
SARAH: (laughing) One of the tags is crack treated seriously
KAYLA: Oh my god. Okay
SARAH: The author regrets nothing
KAYLA: Are you sure? Are you sure?
SARAH: Anyway. Parker, that's iconic
KAYLA: Thanks, I guess
SARAH: Are you going to give us new ones every once in a while, or are we going to be promoting one thing for a really long time?
KAYLA: I don't know which is worse
SARAH: Is this going to be a tabletop games Benjamin Ybarra situation?
KAYLA: Yeah, what is it? Oh man
SARAH: Because Benjamin Ybarra actually used to change
KAYLA: Yeah and then stuck with it
SARAH: And then said fuck it, yeah tabletop games. Anyway. Well thank you, Parker
KAYLA: Oh, Parker. At what cost?
SARAH: At what cost, Parker? Our other $10 patrons who are promoting something this week are Martin Chiesl who'd like to promote his album, Lofi Beats to Dream to, Purple Hayes who'd like to promote their friends' podcast, the Host Club, Barefoot Backpacker who'd like to promote their youtube channel @rtwbarefoot, Ruby who'd like to promote their blog and instagram @aspeculations and SongOfStorm who'd like to promote a healthy work life balance. Again, we just went for it, full 6. To round those fellas out
KAYLA: Sometimes you gotta
SARAH: Sometimes you gotta. Our other $10 patrons are Alyson, Arcnes, Ben MacLeod, Benjamin Ybarra you know what he's promoting, I don't need to say it
KAYLA: You know
SARAH: Boston Smith, David Harris, Derick and Carissa, Elle Bitter, my Aunt Jeannie, and Maff. Our $15 patrons, we do have a new one, who just asked to be called Ace, which I think is iconic
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Given the topic
KAYLA: Given the audience. It could be anyone
SARAH: Given perhaps most of our listeners are ace
KAYLA: That's honestly more anonymous than saying can you call me anonymous, at this point
SARAH: yeah. Yeah.
KAYLA: Yeah. Slay
SARAH: But Ace, thank you. And they would like to promote the writer Crystal Scherer
KAYLA: Slay
SARAH: I don't know what they write, but fucking...
KAYLA: Hopefully it's nothing fucking crazy. We probably should've checked, but here we are
SARAH: I think in their email they said and I just...
KAYLA: I mean I don't think that this person would do us dirty like that. That would be pretty wild.
SARAH: No, they didn't say what they write. Anyway
KAYLA: I'm looking it up. I don't think you would do us like that. I didn't mean it. I take it back, actually
SARAH: Our other $15 patrons are Andrew Hillum, who would like to promote the Invisible Spectrum podcast, Dia Chappell who would like to promote twitch.tv/MelodyDia, Hecor Murillo who would like to promote friends that are supportive, constructive, and help you grow as a better person on Normal Gossip. They support you by telling Normal Gossip to put us on... you get it. Nathaniel White, NathanielJWhiteDesigns.com, and Kayla's aunt Nina who'd like to promote katemaggartart.com and our $20 patron is Dragonfly who'd like to support us being on Normal Gossip as guests.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: not for a story
KAYLA: That -- don't even want to think about that
SARAH: As guests
KAYLA: Guests.
SARAH: Thanks for listening. Bagel, again, I'm so sorry. Tune in next Sunday
KAYLA: RIP Bagel.
SARAH: For more of us in your ears.
KAYLA: And until then, take good care of your Bagels
SARAH: Take your fucking Adderall.
KAYLA: Oh.
(56:14)