Hey what's up hello! This week we're chatting with Madeline Dyer about her new anthology Being Ace: An Anthology of Queer, Trans, Femme, and Disabled Stories of Asexual Love and Connection.
Episode Transcript: www.soundsfakepod.com/transcripts/being-ace-feat-madeline-dyer
Buy Being Ace: https://bookshop.org/a/101336/9781645679561
Follow Madeline: @mdyerauthor / @elinannalise
Donate: patreon.com/soundsfakepod
Follow: @soundsfakepod
Join: https://discord.gg/W7VBHMt
Buy our book: www.soundsfakepod.com/book
Hey what's up hello! This week we're chatting with Madeline Dyer about her new anthology Being Ace: An Anthology of Queer, Trans, Femme, and Disabled Stories of Asexual Love and Connection.
Episode Transcript: www.soundsfakepod.com/transcripts/being-ace-feat-madeline-dyer
Buy Being Ace: https://bookshop.org/a/101336/9781645679561
Follow Madeline: @mdyerauthor / @elinannalise
Donate: patreon.com/soundsfakepod
Follow: @soundsfakepod
Join: https://discord.gg/W7VBHMt
Buy our book: www.soundsfakepod.com/book
[00:00:00]
SARAH: Hey, what's up? Hello. Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aroace girl, I'm Sarah that's me
KAYLA: And a bi-demisexual girl, that's me Kayla
MADELINE: And me I'm Madeline Dyer, a ace writer
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality and pretty much anything else we just don't understand
KAYLA: On today's episode, Being Ace
BOTH: Sounds Fake But Okay
[Intro Music]
SARAH: Welcome back to the pod
KAYLA: Hello everyone and hello, especially to our special guest
MADELINE: Hi
SARAH: Hi, Madeline.
KAYLA: Hi
SARAH: Today we are joined by Madeline. We're going to have a delightful conversation. Apologies if I sound sick, it's because I am
KAYLA: It's because she is
SARAH: But we move. So, here we are do we have any housekeeping? No
KAYLA: No
SARAH: Our housekeeping is Madeline.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: All right. So, Kayla, what are we talking about this week?
KAYLA: This week we are talking about an amazing new book called Being Ace: An Anthology of Queer, Trans, Femme, and Disabled Stories of Asexual Love and Connection. The anthology was edited by our beautiful guest Madeline. Yeah, so we’re going to talk about it
SARAH: Amazing. Why don't we start off by… Madeline, why don't you tell people who you are? Anything you care to have them know or not know?
MADELINE: Sure. So yeah, I am Madeline Dyer. I write young adult fiction, I also write ace romance as Ellen Annalise, so I have that pen name and I've got another pen name, which is Ellen Dyer and again, I write stories of that and I write lots of like thrillers, dystopian, sci-fi, dark contemporary and I also write in verse and yeah, I'm the editor of Being Ace
SARAH: This is absolutely not related, but can I just ask a brief question? Why two pen names?
MADELINE: So, mostly it's because I write in different genres and then my pen names… So, like my main writing name is for traditional publishing and then I do some indie publishing with pen names and my agent just thought it made sense to separate it like that
KAYLA: Yes
MADELINE: Particularly with contracts because you can be limited with like what you can indie publish if you've got a traditional contract at the same time, right?
SARAH: Right. That's smart.
KAYLA: Good to know.
SARAH: Now you know
MADELINE: Yeah
KAYLA: Yeah, I was snooping around on your website looking at your other books and such and I was like, oh so many pen names. So sassy
MADELINE: Yeah, I mean, I'm not great at handling the social media accounts with all my pen names and now I pretty much just sort of…
KAYLA: Oh my gosh
MADELINE: Just sharing into the other and then just…
KAYLA: I didn't even think about that, having to keep up multiple social presences for different pen names, that sounds stressful.
MADELINE: Yeah, I mean, I can just about do it one name and then anything more than that is asking a lot
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: You need to just clone yourself and just
KAYLA: True
MADELINE: Yeah, that would be great
KAYLA: Easier
SARAH: All right
KAYLA: Getting back on topic then, I guess
SARAH: Yeah, sorry, I just… I was curious
KAYLA: No, I was also curious, I was also going to ask, um, could you kind of give us like a quick synopsis or your little like pitch I guess for Being Ace
SARAH: Elevator pitch
MADELINE: Sure. Um, I am notoriously really bad at elevator pitches because…
KAYLA: Same
MADELINE: I always make the book sound so bad
SARAH: Me
KAYLA: Me. You're in a safe space, we too are bad at it
MADELINE: Okay. Yes, so Being Ace is a collection of aspec stories by aspec for first, all of them are young adult stories and some of them deal more explicitly with various parts that come with sort of like being ace and the identity and others are just about characters who happen to be ace in sort of like fantastical worlds, solving mysteries, that kind of thing. So, we've got quite a variety and it is a multi-genre anthology so we've got sci-fi, we've got like medieval fantasy, there's contemporary, there's like a thriller as well, we've got quite a range so the idea is that any reader going into Being Ace will be able to find at least one story that is like their favorite genre.
SARAH: Yeah, there's like verse in there. There's all sorts of fun and funky stuff happening
KAYLA: Yeah, and how many, I'm trying to remember exactly how many different stories there are is it 15?
MADELINE: Um, I think it's 14
KAYLA: Okay, I tried to count and then I forgot, I will count, I’ll count now
SARAH: Because the first one is and the introduction as well, so that's non-fiction.
KAYLA: It's 14 yeah, so then there's the intro by Cody who we all know
SARAH: Hi Cody
MADELINE: Cody is great.
KAYLA: I know, they're amazing
SARAH: And that leads me to one of my questions, we'll segue here, why Cody for the introduction? Like what led you to reach out to them and say hey, please
MADELINE: Yeah, so we had the lineup for the fiction writers pretty much sorted by the time we were looking for our introduction writer and my agent and I were just like discussing who might be a good fit and who we would approach and we decided about we would approach Cody first and it was great when they agreed to do it and like they were so enthusiastic about it and I just assumed with them like a few times just sort of like sharing my vision for the anthology, there are a couple of things I wanted the introduction to specifically cover as well and they were very like receptive and open to everything and like really enthusiastic and excited by it. So yeah, it was great working with them.
KAYLA: That's awesome. Yeah
SARAH: Did you ever consider like writing the introduction yourself or that sort of thing or were you always like no we need to have another voice do this?
MADELINE: Um, so I did specifically want to have a writer who was already writing sort of like ace nonfiction and who already had about sort of like platform and following and the expertise in writing that because like although I have done some nonfiction writing I've not done any sort of like introductions before and I just felt like adding in an another voice and another sort of like way that we can talk about being ace and what it means for like another person was important when this is an anthology representing so many different aspec voices
KAYLA: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
SARAH: And I think Cody is a perfect choice too because so much of their work is like directed at basically the YA audience
KAYLA: Yeah, sure
SARAH: Just in a more nonfiction world, so
KAYLA: How did you find the authors for this? Was there like an open call? Did you approach people directly?
MADELINE: Yeah, so I actually did both. So, like this is like many years ago when I first came up with the idea for the anthology, I wasn't sure at that point whether I would be sort of like indie publishing it or if my agent would be representing it but we've had like a call out on Twitter and then I also approached some writers directly who I already knew or I just sort of like found their email addresses online and just contacted them that way. But on Twitter, we had such an amazing response to the open call and like it gained so much traction that my agent just said like but she would definitely be happy to represent it. So we got like the proposal pretty much just using the writers that I'd approached directly and then just mentioned that there would be an open call, I just like maybe four or five different authors because it was important to get the sort of like the new writers and underrepresented voices included as well so yeah and we've got quite a few writers in this collection where it's either their first publication completely or it's the first traditional publication which I'm very happy with and I think it worked really well having a mix of like established and new writers
KAYLA: Yeah, that's so exciting that the traction you got on Twitter was able to help you like get it traditionally published that's really cool that they were able to see like oh people really want this. This is this is worth it to us, that's really cool.
SARAH: Twitter is not all bad, just these days, mostly bad
KAYLA: Yeah
MADELINE: Yeah, I was really happy about that because I think before we got that sort of like publicity and excitement about the anthology that people can't maybe were thinking it was going to be a bit niche and that there wouldn't be sort of like a mainstream audience ready for it, but, yeah, it just proved that traditional publishing was like the right way to go with this book.
KAYLA: Yeah, and it's hardcover, too. It's like so official and fancy.
SARAH: Imagine having a hardcover book, we don't
KAYLA: This isn't about us.
SARAH: I know. But that is… I didn't even think about whether it would be hardcover or paperback. Wow, that's so exciting. It's hardcover
KAYLA: And the cover is gorgeous. I was going to ask a different question, but now I want to talk about the cover, how did you… did you like find an artist specifically? How did the cover come to be?
MADELINE: Yeah, so I was talking with the publisher about sort of like design ideas that I had and I didn't really have any design ideas. I was probably not that helpful in that conversation but yeah, they had like this portfolio of artists that they let me have a look at and better we would be like pre-selected a few and it was the illustration in the portfolio by Sam Prentice, that I really fell in love with
[00:10:00]
MADELINE: So, the publisher just asked him to be able to do the artwork and specifically commissioned the illustration that came to be on the cover so, yeah, and it was just so exciting watching that all come together and just sort of like seeing the early concept illustrations that Sam gave us and how it evolved and then like… it was a magical moment when we saw the title added to it as well, so yeah it was great
SARAH: I just looked up the cover because I was like, wait, do I know what the cover looks like? It's so cool
KAYLA: It's gorgeous, yeah
SARAH: Everyone listening, go look it up
KAYLA: Go look at it
MADELINE: Yeah, it definitely stands out.
KAYLA: It's such an exciting moment, like I remember for our book when we saw the cover official for the first time with the title and everything, it was like, oh my god, it's real
MADELINE: Yeah, definitely a magical moment and the book has had amazing placement in Barnes & Noble as well and I've seen so many photographs from US readers, just seeing it in the store and I think that cover really stands out and we're getting quite a lot of table placement as well, which I think is so cool and exciting for an ace anthology
SARAH: Yeah, that's exciting
KAYLA: That’s so exciting. Yeah, for an ace book especially, that representation is so exciting.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: So, you mentioned that you had had this idea for this years ago, so what was the process like? I guess, what gave you the idea, what was the process like in the beginning, all of that kind of stuff?
MADELINE: Yeah, sure, so I was doing my MFA in creative writing with Kingston University and for one of the modules we had to write in a style that we had never really written before and use a very specific but unconventional plot pattern, so I chose a spiral pattern and a verse narrative and the story I wrote for that module was an early draft of Nylon Bed Socks and I found something so freeing and rewarding about writing that, even though it was such a personal story and it felt kind of scary letting other people read it, but it just felt so important to me that I wanted to find a way to get it out in the world and obviously the story is kind of a bit too short to release a book on its own, so I was just thinking about different ways that I could get it out there. I sent it to my agent and she really loved it as well, and it was about that time that I started thinking, well, okay, what if I could add a whole anthology of aspec stories. So, yeah, that's kind of where that came from, but the whole process, it was over several years because I wrote the story first, so I think I finished the story around about January or February and then we took this anthology out on submission on proposal in July, and I think it was the following November when we had interest from publisher and then the next May when the book deal was announced, and then from there it was… I think it was just under two years before edits were all done and yeah, the book released last month, so it was quite a long process, but it was very exciting
KAYLA: Obviously, you've written your own fiction as well, so what are the major differences you've found between being the editor of an anthology and then just being the sole writer yourself?
MADELINE: Yeah, so before Being Ace I did co-edit an anthology with Emily Collin, that one is called Unbound so because I had that experience of editing other people's short stories and bringing it all together into a cohesive whole I kind of went into Being Ace knowing more what to expect, which is really helpful but obviously every publisher and editor works in a different way, so it's still kind of individual overall. I guess the main thing with anthology is that you're bringing together so many different strands and different voices and you're trying to make it work as a whole, all together. So, at one point I realized that we had no cis men writing in Being Ace so I was trying to think of how can I address this when I can't add any more authors in because it was all locked in at that point so we looked at some stories where some cis men characters could possibly be added in, so two of the stories men had like this added in, one of them was a complete rewrite that we had requested it with a different pitch as well, so it was very organic for that story. And then obviously I also asked Cody if they could address that as well in the introduction to show that it is something that I was aware of and it wasn't just a complete oversight. But it was really interesting because I think a lot more ace writers who identify as women or non-binary are out publicly as being ace than men so pretty much the majority of the submissions I got from the open call were from non-binary and women identifying writers. So I found that really interesting, just something active I had to be aware of when I was putting together Being Ace and the subtitle was decided by the editor of publishers so I didn't really get much say in that but they wanted that to reflect the breadth and variety of authors involved which I thought was really great. But obviously those are kind of considerations that you don't really take into account when you're just writing your own fiction novel because then it's much more of a personal process and you're not kind of contending with so many other voices and trying to make sure that everyone is happy with the way that their story ends up because we did have a lot of changes in edits and in the editorial process and a lot of being an editor of an anthology is managing everyone's expectations, making sure everyone is happy, doing negotiations with them if they're not happy with the edits that are suggested and just trying to think of a way forward. So, there's a lot of people management and a lot of organization. I actually had to buy a planner because I'm so unorganized normally and I can't let anything happen here.
SARAH: Yeah. Well, because you want to make sure that the final anthology has a sense of cohesion and represents the vision you imagine, but you also want the writers to be happy with what they're putting out there. So, I can see how that would be a struggle
MADELINE: Yeah, anyway, there are just so many admin emails as well. Like every time someone in the publisher would check with me on something, I had to like check that all of the other 14 writers were also happy with it. So yeah, there was like one day where I had to send like 200 emails altogether…
KAYLA: Oh my God
MADELINE: Because I kept getting different emails from different departments of Page Street, wanting to know like different things. And then like coordinating the release events where we were doing like these online panels and trying to make sure that everyone was available at a time and that time zones matched up. And yeah, it was, it was so complicated at times. So, there are just like a lot of emails and I had to be on top of everything.
KAYLA: That seems so stressful. Just thinking about like, I know like Sarah as a writer, I know especially from working with her how like possessive she is over her writing, and how like much control she wants to have. So, I can only imagine dealing with like 14 writers.
MADELINE: Yeah.
SARAH: You mentioned that you had a lot of responses to the open call. How many did you have? Like how many did you have to kind of narrow it down from?
MADELINE: Yeah, so I think I was allowed to pick four or five… No, it was five or six stories to start with. And then my agent and also the editor who acquired the book from the publisher also went through the ones. So, I… we ended up with four or five in the actual anthology. But that was literally out of about 250.
SARAH: Wow
MADELINE: Like, there were so many amazing stories that were submitted to me, but I had to like, pass on and I was so sad about that because, like, I was trying to cover a range of aspec identities within the anthology. And I remember there was one particular story where like I loved the writing so much but the plot was kind of similar to one that another writer was also doing and it was like similar identity even though it was done in a completely different way. I just knew that, like, when the publisher and my agent was going through this, and looking at like pairing down the number because they did like, give me a specific number for how many stories I could include. But I knew that they were going to like, say, we need to reduce this.
SARAH: Right
MADELINE: And I knew that they were going to look at like, places where it's almost like doubled up.
SARAH: Right. You don’t want to be repetitive
MADELINE: So yeah, and it was just up to fate because there were so many really great writers. I really hope I can do like a follow up ace anthology and just like…
SARAH: Yeah, amazing
MADELINE: Other voices because that would just be amazing.
SARAH: Being Ace too fast, too furious.
MADELINE: Yeah.
SARAH: Too being, too ace. Yeah, that's, that's crazy because like I, logistically I know that there are so many aspecs out in the world, and then so many of them are writers but just like hearing the 250 number I'm like, oh my God, there are so many of us, so many voices to be heard.
MADELINE: Yeah. Like, I was just blown away by it and yeah like I wanted to include so many more like I think like my initial shortlist had like some like 25 authors on and like my agent was like, okay, you need to half that and I was just like how on earth am I going to do that?
SARAH: How am I going to do that? Yeah. Oh, man. That's, that's tough. I don't envy you in having done that but I will say that what you ended up with is really delightful and remarkable. So many of them are in these like magical fantasy sci-fi worlds.
[00:20:00]
MADELINE: Yeah
SARAH: Was it an intentional choice to kind of seek out those types of stories or is that just kind of what happened?
MADELINE: Um that was kind of what happened. So, the sort of percentage about us speculative, it kind of came about… came about in a very organic way, because the majority of the submissions I had were speculative fiction. And when you kind of look at the stories that aces are present in and what they're not present in, I felt like giving a majority to speculative stories sort of balanced the anthology quite well, because, particularly with the young adult and with the genre sort of popular, it was from when the anthology was being sold. Because also, the anthology, we were doing the editing and like, all of that… right on the back of COVID. And publishers weren't really interested in as much contemporary realistic fiction, particularly if it had like, darker undertones.
SARAH: Yeah, they were like, we don't want to talk about this. Everything is bad. Give me something different.
MADELINE: Yes. So, I also have to be aware of what would make this anthology more appealing to publishers. But yeah, I mean, I love speculative fiction. And at one point, I was thinking, okay, is this actually going to be like a whole anthology where everything's speculative apart from my own story? And then I was like, okay, maybe I do need to like see if I can add in a couple more that are like contemporary as well, just to sort of like balance it off a bit. But I think even with the contemporary stories, there are so many strands that provide cohesion in terms of other themes and like motifs throughout the whole anthology. So, I think even though we are like multi genre, it does feel very cohesive.
SARAH: Yeah. And I think that says something as well about the kind of stories that aspecs tell partially in like a way that is a little bit sad and that like, you know, we have to put ourselves in these fantastical, you know, speculative stories to, you know, to see ourselves because we don't necessarily see ourselves in the real world. But I think it also speaks to the creativity and the just the vast difference in experiences and interests that aspecs have like it allows us to not be all painted with the same brush to have so many different kind of worlds exist in this anthology. And I think both of those can exist at the same time and I think it's just cool. I like it.
MADELINE: Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that. And also, I think, because a lot of stories are kind of like combating stereotypes are out there about like what being ace is and combating those perspective story I think is like such a creative and engaging way to fight and resist those stereotypes. So, like Lindsay Miller looks at like a stereotype of like asexual is being associated with the dead. And that is like such a prominent theme in her story. And then Essie Anderson also does that in her story with looking at the purity myth and associations with being a virgin with having sex and how that links in with asexuality. So, I think that's really interesting that both of those authors chose to engage in those kind of like discourses and rhetoric through speculative fiction because it adds an extra element, but it also makes it a very fun, entertaining read, even though like, there's a lot of sort of a moral message that's quite driving the whole story.
SARAH: I think that aspect also makes it more approachable for non-aspec audiences because I feel like so much of the explaining aspec identities to allos is done in metaphor because we struggle to make them understand what it is like to exist in our bodies and in our, you know, in our identities. And so, I think by having these more fantastical speculative worlds, it's kind of writing that metaphor into it and it's allowing them to take a step away from real life and view this parallel universe and be like, oh, yeah, okay, this makes sense. And then I can see how this also applies to my world.
MADELINE: Yeah, definitely. And I think that, yeah, like you're saying, it just shows how important speculative fiction is for exploring identities and making them more accessible to those that don't share these identities. And I've heard from some readers, like allo readers, where they didn't know what asexuality was or could be or like how it's different for each person. Most of them reading the anthology really helped them see that there's no one way to be ace, which I was so happy to hear because that was kind of like my overall goal in putting together this aspec anthology was to show you that we're not a monolith. Like every ace person has a different experience of being ace and it means different things for different people and some people have like a lot to do with asexuality, like raising awareness of it. And other people like their ace, but they don't talk about it necessarily like it doesn't come up like in conversation regularly. And I like how that's reflected in the story so I think we've got one story where the main character is not even mentioned, but she is ace. But you can kind of tell me, obviously it's an ace anthology so we know that she is ace, but we can kind of see that we're focusing on like a platonic relationship and we've got like a strong emphasis on friendship throughout the whole anthology and just emphasizing the importance of that. So yeah, I'm really happy with that.
KAYLA: Yeah, I really liked how different each of the main characters was. Like you said, it really like there are some characters that are, you know, they're like asexual and sex repulsed. You have others that are in queer platonic or other kinds of relationships. Obviously, there's a huge focus on friendship. There's people with disabilities with neurodivergence. So, I think, yeah, it really does an amazing job of showing that, yes, all of those… these people are on the asexual spectrum, but they have all of these huge differences in what they want and how they conduct their lives and everything. So yeah, I think you nailed that. It was really good.
MADELINE: I'm so happy to hear that. Thank you.
KAYLA: Also, I was gone. I don't know how much Sarah is going to keep in this… of the audio of what happened to me. So, I was gone for a lot of the conversation. But I just wanted to say that I'm like a huge fantasy and sci-fi person. So, I was very excited to see that so heavily represented the book. And I agree with everything Sarah said about what it did for moving the message along in the book and everything.
SARAH: Maybe I said a bunch of extreme stuff that you didn't hear when you were cleaning up cat vomit.
KAYLA: Maybe
SARAH: For all you know, I said some really nasty stuff
KAYLA: Really nasty stuff
SARAH: And you just agreed with it.
KAYLA: Well, I guess I'll just have to trust you after all these years.
SARAH: How did you decide on the order?
KAYLA: Ooh, that’s a good question
MADELINE: Yeah, so that was me and Tamara who is the acquiring editor at Page Street. we were just talking a lot about the sequence order. We pretty much knew which story we would start with and which story would finish with. And then we played around a lot with the sequence order. So, I remember at one point, I wrote each title on a post-it note and was physically moving around on my floor, just trying to work out the different themes. And I was trying to think, okay, well, I can't have these two stories back-to-back because they both have exactly the same type of relationship and one aspect of it. And I thought, okay, a reader might pick up on that, even though the relationship is very different. Both of them were about rescuing a romantic interest.
SARAH: On paper, there was too much similarity to have them back-to-back.
MADELINE: Yeah, yeah. So, we were looking at all these connections and the similarities and differences between these stories and just trying out these different orders. And the final one, we actually settled on quite quickly once we actually put it into the Word document. I think we actually only swapped on two of the stories in the end, just because when other editors at the publisher were reviewing the arcs, they thought, oh, maybe we should start with the other story instead, like have that one before it. But yeah, like it didn't really change that dramatically once we pinned down sort of like a rough sequence. And I was quite happy with the sort of like thematic flow. So, we looked also at like whether the story ended on a hopeful note or not. And then like there are a couple that aren't that hopeful and that have like these darker themes. So, we wanted to space those out a little bit, but also have them fairly close to one another in the anthology, because we thought that it's almost making like a tidal wave and we wanted to like maintain that momentum rather than going backward.
SARAH: That makes sense. Sounds hard.
KAYLA: Yeah, I mean, so much.
SARAH: I'm just like imagining you with like, you know, those like murder boards with like red string. Like I'm imagining you doing that just with these post-it notes. It's a very writerly thing too. I've been there.
MADELINE: Definitely. And I remember I took a photo of it at one point and I was like, I would love to put this on my Instagram, but I couldn't because the stories hadn't been announced in the anthology at that point. It just looked like the aesthetic of it looked amazing. And I was so happy and it made me feel like a proper writer, editor person, you know?
SARAH: Like put this on Pinterest. Let's go.
MADELINE: Yeah.
[00:30:00]
KAYLA: I keep wanting to… I'm not going to ask you your favorite because I feel like that's not good, unless you have an explicit favorite.
SARAH: It’s like choosing your favorite children.
KAYLA: Choosing your favorite child. But I do want to ask Sarah her favorite. You can answer if you want. I just figured it's probably a mean thing to ask.
SARAH: And you're going to make me choose between Madeline's children?
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: No.
KAYLA: All right.
SARAH: I do know what your favorite is because you did.
KAYLA: I did tell you. I guess I'll share my favorite then of Madeline's children. My favorite was, hold on, I have to make sure it's the right one. Oh, yes. My favorite was Across the Stars, which I think is the second or the third one.
MADELINE: Yeah. I remember that one.
KAYLA: So that's… no one else wants to participate with me in this conversation. But so, the listeners know that's Kayla's favorite and that's Kayla's recommendation.
SARAH: I will say, though, that the rate of me like crying.
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: Like I was… I was for the first couple of stories, I was like texting Kayla like updates and like I stopped keeping track after the fifth one. But I went four for five on crying for the first five stories.
MADELINE: Oh, wow.
KAYLA: And speak on that, Sarah. Why did you cry so much?
SARAH: Some of us are just built different.
KAYLA: Okay, interesting.
SARAH: Listen, I got very emo. I'm a crier.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I am a media related crier. So, I mean, that's always a good sign. And that's also not to say that the one that I didn't cry at wasn't good because they were all excellent. No hate. I won't tell you which one it was.
KAYLA: Oh my God
MADELINE: I have been tagged in a lot of posts on social media and people were saying, oh, I didn't expect to like need tissues. I cry so much when I'm reading this book. And I just love that because I love making my readers cry, which kind of makes me sound really mean. But…
SARAH: You're right for that.
KAYLA: No, yeah. It means that you're moving people. I also think like it when Sarah texted me that it took me back to both when we read Loveless by Alice Oseman and when we saw the 2019 adaption of Little Women. I remember Sarah crying heavily at both of those. And a lot of it, I think, from what I remember you telling me, was just because of the representation. Like you had never seen explicit representation before of being ace. So, I mean, I imagine it was like a similar reasoning.
SARAH: Right. And like I've said this before, but like, you know, you can know that representation matters, but it's not until you like truly experience it yourself that you're like, oh, I get like what it feels like to actually be represented. And so, I think like, that's also just like a huge plus of this anthology format of you get so many different voices. And like, I think like even reading the first the first story, I was like, this feels like such like… this is going to be such a healing story for so many people. And so, I was like, what a way to fucking set the tone. I think it was just… it's… I don't know, turns out representation does just matter.
KAYLA: What?
SARAH: And that's not something people just say. Weird.
KAYLA: It's crazy.
MADELINE: Yeah, I mean, I think like, just being able to see ourselves in fiction is just so empowering. And I really love it. And also, like going back to when we talk about like the emotion in it, like this is like the massive stereotype of ace people being kind of like robotic and emotionless. And that was one thing in particular that I really wanted to combat in this anthology and just show like all the different emotions and like really sort of like say, okay, well, if you think this, you're wrong. Like we are not emotionless robotic people who are like missing out on loads of stuff that's considered to be normal because being ace is normal. And I think like the emotions that come through in the anthology, I think in part it's so powerful because it is about representation, like you're saying.
KAYLA: Yeah, I think that's really a through line with all of the stories and all the main characters is I feel like looking back now.
SARAH: And Cody touches on that in the introduction too
KAYLA: Yes, true. I feel like all of the main characters are so passionate in so many different ways. Like just kind of thinking back, they all have something or someone that they care very, very deeply about, which I think says a lot about the aspec community is that, you know, we might not care about things that other people deem as very, very important. But like you said, that doesn't mean we're emotionless. It's just that we put our energy into different places, which can turn into very like amazing things. Like there's characters in this anthology that achieve amazing, amazing things because that's what they're putting their energy into.
MADELINE: Yeah, definitely.
KAYLA: I love to cry.
SARAH: Aspecs are so cool.
KAYLA: I love to cry.
MADELINE: We are, aren't we?
SARAH: Each story within the anthology has a little illustration at the beginning, and it reflects the story. Was that done by the same artist as the cover? Like what, how did that come about?
MADELINE: So, the illustrations for each story were not done by the same artist as the cover. It was the designers within the sort of like art and design team at Page Street. And that was actually such a surprise to me because I didn't know that we were getting illustrations like that. And then I think I was sent like… it was either like in the galley tracks or like the arcs. And I just saw it and like they were also perfect for every story. And I remember like after I saw the first one, I was like looking through looking at each story to see which illustration has been chosen and it was actually ana exciting moment and I really like the unexpected loads of surprises like that, and I also… the hardcover, like if you take the wrap, a little of that the spine underneath the jacket. I don't know if it's like an official name for it. But the text on it is shiny and sparkly. And I just love that as well.
KAYLA: I love that
MADELINE: Because I had no idea that was going to happen. And then it's just when I got my advanced hardcovers, like I took the jacket off and I was just like wow… So, yeah, that was an amazing discovery.
KAYLA: That's so fun. I love books with little… like I know like our book has like a little texture on it. And I remember finding out when our publisher was like, oh, yeah, we're thinking of doing this like texture thing. I was like, yes, my book gets a fancy thing.
MADELINE: It's so exciting, isn't it? Just like hearing that and then like seeing it in person for the first time just makes it so special.
SARAH: It's like this is a real book, aspec stories make for real books and real exciting things that you can buy at the store and read and give five stars on Goodreads and you know, all of the above.
KAYLA: It is so exciting. I wanted to ask about your story in the book specifically, because like you said, the whole anthology started with you writing a version of Nylon Bed Socks, which was just… it's so… because it's in verse. I think it's just so different from a lot of the other stories in the book and it's just so emotional and poignant. So, I just wanted to, I don't even have a specific question, I guess I just like want to give you space to also talk about like your individual work that went into it, your writing work, not just all the editing work that you put into the anthology.
MADELINE: Oh, thank you. Yeah, I mean, I loved writing that story. Like there is so much of me in the story. And one of the nice things about writing like an early draft for my MFA module is I wasn't actually thinking about like publisher reception, whereas when I'm writing like with a manuscript I'm currently writing, I'm very much aware of like how publishers might perceive it, how they might market it. At the moment, I've got a bit of a genre blend going on and my agent said I need to like take that out because it's not going to be considered commercial. Whereas I didn't really have any of those worries in writing the early draft of Nylon Bed Socks because I was just kind of like looking at engaging with like verse narratives and spiral patterns, and just sort of like having fun, and it really opened up my creativity. I mean, it allowed me to like, write about experiences that I have had in a way that I'd never written about them before and I found it so freeing and really enlightening being able to do that. And then I remember when I was talking to my agent about like creating being ace and I was thinking, okay, well, is this story actually too dark? Because like, it deals with like correction assault, it's about like eating disorders, and it's about like actual like calorie counts in it as well, which I was like, oh, wow, okay, that could be quite problematic and triggering for readers. And I remember at one point, I was talking to Tamara about that. And she just said, “Oh, we'll just put a content warning in” like she didn't want me to change anything about it, because she said, like, it was so emotional and powerful, as it was. And that story actually didn't go through much editing where it changed, like we changed that a couple little words, I added in like, maybe a stanza or two to some of these segments in it. But it pretty much retained the raw energy that I had written it with to start with, which I really loved. And I think it adds to it. Because it just feels so organic in the way that I created it. And yeah, like, I was, I was really nervous, actually, about readers being able to read it, because it was a lot of me on the page. And I was thinking, like, do I actually want to be opening myself up like this to the public and sharing all of this, but at the same time, I thought, okay, like, it's important, because I did want to raise awareness about like, correcting assault, and like, to say that like, this does exist, and it is happening to some ace people, but it's not being talked about, and it should be being talked about. Yeah, like, it's such a personal and powerful piece. And I still get a bit scared sometimes, particularly if it's someone that I know is reading the anthology, because I'm just like, oh, they're going to read it, and they're going to wonder, like, how much of this is like, lived experience.
KAYLA: Yeah
[00:40:00]
SARAH: I feel like that's a question every author gets is like, well, how much of this is based on your real life? And it's like, just…
MADELINE: Yeah
SARAH: Appreciate the story. Why are you bringing me into this?
MADELINE: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And one interesting thing I found from readers who have been discussing the anthology, because I've been to a few book clubs where they've been like reading…
KAYLA: Oh, so cool
SARAH: The ace books for that month. And they always have the same question for the contemporary writers, because they assume that the contemporary stories were based on the author's real life. But they assume that the speculative stories were entirely fiction and particularly in the way that the ace identity is written and explored in the story. And I just found that really interesting. Like why would it be that my story is taken as more auto-fiction or autobiographical than a fantasy story, where there's probably still a lot of the author's ace experiences within it? And I mean, I've chatted to some of the other authors and they've said there's a lot of me in the story. And yet, because it's fantasy, it's almost like it's removed from them in that sense. So, I just found that really interesting how the genre was almost setting up different expectations and readers in terms of how much they thought there was real life in it.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: That's so interesting.
SARAH: Well, I don't live in the Neptune district and I don't have a friend who can enchant a suit of armor to pretend to be a person. Therefore, this has to be so far removed from reality.
KAYLA: That's funny. It's so amazing to hear though that your publisher wanted you to keep it as it was because like I said, I mean, that was one of the stories that stuck with me the most because I think it's so important in the anthology to show both the happy things and the very sad and very difficult things about being ace. I think it's very powerful how many of the stories have an uplifting ending that you can kind of like imagine this really beautiful situation or this really beautiful world. But it's also important, I think, especially for the allos that might read it to teach them like, listen, it's not always great. Like there are some really harsh realities that we're facing that we would like help with, like if you could be our allies.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And so… yeah, it's… I think that's really important that it stayed in the way it was. And I'm really happy that your publisher was like, yeah, let's do it. Because, yeah, it's really amazing.
SARAH: Yeah. Well, and I work in Hollywood, I work in TV, like TV development and production. And so much of development is just like, who can we sell this to? Like, is this sellable? And it's like, it could be the best fucking thing you've ever read. But if you can't sell it, it doesn't matter. And so like, it's so good to hear that, like, in this situation, like, you had at least one story in there that like, that was not even a consideration. And it was, you know, allowed not just allowed to go to print, but encouraged to go to print. And that it you know, and like, those are the kind of stories, the stories that are like, “not sellable” are often the ones that really resonate the most with people because it's just like, I'm an exec, I know what the people want. And it's like…
KAYLA: You're a white man.
SARAH: Do you?
KAYLA: You’re the oldest white man I've ever met, actually.
SARAH: For a while, the two biggest shows were Ted Lasso and Squid Game. So, like, do you… do you know what people, because those are very different.
MADELINE: Yeah, I mean, that's such a good point as well. And I think having an anthology allows stories that wouldn't necessarily get page time to be included because I'm sure if I'd written that if I'd written Nylon Bed Socks as a novel and expanded it, the content that I was covering just wouldn't have been considered commercial. But because it's within a whole like aspec anthology, it was deemed okay. And I was really lucky as well with my publisher with like their enthusiasm about including the rawness of it. And I mean, with the other stories as well, when I was editing with them, if there was something big that I wanted to change, I often had a conversation with the author first, where I just asked, like, generally, like, what is your vision with this story? And is there anything in it that you don't want to change? Just so that I kind of felt like I was on the same page as them at the start of the editing process event, if it was like a slight clash with my editorial vision over publishers editorial vision with what the author wanted their story to say, that we were kind of aware about start. But then that didn't really happen. Because would be edits that we were making it was often about making the anthology more cohesive as a whole and just highlighting different connections and themes within and between the stories. So yeah, it was just like a really, really exciting process.
KAYLA: Yeah, that's amazing. Oh, just love it.
SARAH: I love it.
KAYLA: I'm so excited. I want to… I've been meaning to go to my bookstore for a long time because I have a lot of books to get but now I'm like I have to get this for my shelf. I need the sparkly spine.
MADELINE: Sparkly spine is so beautiful.
KAYLA: I need it.
SARAH: Yeah, this is not going to be the first time where we have had someone come on the podcast for… like to talk about their book and we have gotten a free copy of it read and then I have bought it with my own money as I read, I was like, I want this
KAYLA: I need to hold it. It’s like when you see a cat that’s really cute and you just want to like squish it, you know like you can just…
SARAH: Can you ask the question?
KAYLA: I have that with this book, I just to like… I sort of eat it
SARAH: Okay
KAYLA: You just want to eat a book?
SARAH: No
KAYLA: No? okay
SARAH: Cake or book?
KAYLA: Cake or book?
SARAH: Is this a cake or a book? It is a book
KAYLA: Why not both?
SARAH: Both cake?
KAYLA: No, mono-dose
SARAH: That was all the questions that I had, Kayla do you have others?
KAYLA: No
SARAH: Well, Madeline is there anything else you want to say about your book? You want to get out to the people of the worldwide web?
KAYLA: Or your other works or anything
SARAH: Yeah, anything
KAYLA: Shout it
SARAH: Your favorite color, tell us
MADELINE: Well, my favorite color is green.
SARAH: Ooh
MADELINE: But yeah, with Being Ace, like, I know it is being marketed quite specifically as a book for ace people, which you can kind of see from the cover, like, it is very clearly coded as ace. And I kind of just want to say, like, if you're allo, I would still encourage you to read this, because the stories aren't just about being ace. And I think there's almost a sort of like a worry about like, allo people, whether they'll be able to get anything from it when they don't share the same identity. And even if you like take out the awareness that we're raising and like the education that we're giving about asexuality in these stories, they are just really, there are like really fun stories in this collection that are really entertaining. So, I would say like, whatever sort of like sexuality you identify as, I really encourage you to read it.
SARAH: This book is for everyone.
KAYLA: Yes. I 100%... I already recommended it to several people, including my roommate who's allo. I was like, you have to, you must, you must read it. So, once I get my copy, I'll just hand it to them. I'll say, here you go. Read now. I'll watch you while you read.
SARAH: I will observe you.
KAYLA: Yeah, I think especially for like someone like me who's like a big sci-fi and fantasy person, if you're like big into that, even if you're allo, like Madeline said, like you will thoroughly enjoy it. It's so, so good.
SARAH: Yeah.
MADELINE: Yeah.
SARAH: All right. Well, Kayla, what's our poll for this week? Have you read this anthology? And if not, why?
KAYLA: Why? Is this book or is it cake?
SARAH: Great. Incredible. All right. Kayla, what is your beef and your juice for this week?
KAYLA: My beef this week is that my cat threw up on me while we were recording.
SARAH: During this podcast.
KAYLA: And I had to run downstairs to put the blanket that she threw up on in the wash and then wash everything that there was thrown up on. And it just, I was like, man. Huh? Huh? My juice is that Chicken Shop Date and Hot Ones did a crossover. Chicken Shop Date, do you know what this is? Have I told you about Chicken Shop Date?
SARAH: I don't know what Chicken Shop Date is, but I did see that the crossover happened.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: And people were excited.
KAYLA: Chicken Shop Date is this girl Amelia. It's like an interview show where she goes to chicken shops and interviews celebrities, but it's a date. And she's very awkward, so it's just this very awkward date and she's interviewing them and it's very good. And they both do chicken, so they did a crossover. It was very good.
SARAH: That's good.
KAYLA: So, yeah.
SARAH: My beef is that I'm ill.
KAYLA: She keeps falling asleep without eating because she's too…
SARAH: Two nights in a row I have eaten dinner because I'm just too...
KAYLA: She has sleep for dinner. Too sleepy.
SARAH: I ate sleep for dinner.
KAYLA: Yeah, Sarah texted me and was like, I'm back up. I'm eating carrots. I was like, it's the middle of the night.
SARAH: It was 4 a.m.
KAYLA: It was her midnight dinner of carrots.
SARAH: Of carrots. I also had toaster waffles. Don't worry.
KAYLA: Thank God.
SARAH: My juice is... I'm seeing Hozier today.
KAYLA: Oh, I'm jealous. Do you think Noah Khan will show up?
SARAH: I mean, I hope so, but wasn't he in Oregon?
KAYLA: I would actually shit my pants. I don't know, he showed up?
SARAH: It was in Oregon that he showed up.
[00:50:00]
KAYLA: He could go somewhere else.
SARAH: Is it Cahan? I always thought it was Noah Cahan.
KAYLA: I actually don't know. I saw him live and I still don't know.
SARAH: Great.
KAYLA: I would shit my pants.
SARAH: Please don't do that.
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: Madeline, what is your beef and your juice for this week?
MADELINE: Yeah, I think beef would probably be the weather because we have had three weeks of torrential nonstop rain.
KAYLA: No
MADELINE: And I have… and I've just spent way too long walking about in fields getting absolutely soaked through to the skin. And yeah, I just want it to be sunny again.
SARAH: It's giving Pride and Prejudice like walking in the rain, but not in a good way.
MADELINE: Yeah, I mean, I slipped over in the field today because it got so muddy and it's on a slope and I just slipped and went sliding down on my back, covered in mud. And my husband was just laughing.
KAYLA: Oh my God, what help is he? What the hell?
MADELINE: But yeah, I suppose my juice would actually be that I have invested in a high vis workman's jacket. You know, like the high, like, like fluorescent, like yellow and orange jackets that workmen use on roads. I thought, okay, like, what kind of coat is going to be the most waterproof? And I thought, it's probably going to be a workman's jacket because then I'm going to put up with a coat that is supposed to be waterproof but then isn't.
KAYLA: That's so smart.
MADELINE: So, I went along to the workman's shop and I bought myself one and it is absolutely massive on me because they didn't have men's sizes. And I am quite petite anyway and I got like the smallest size and it goes down to my knees.
KAYLA: That's so cute.
MADELINE: It actually keeps me so warm and it's so well insulated but I'm now like sweating so much when I wear it, which is really odd when I'm also getting soaked by the rain. But it doesn't have a hood either, which does seem a bit weird.
KAYLA: That is weird.
MADELINE: Yeah, I just found out that anyone can see me.
KAYLA: That's so smart, though. Like, of course that would be the best waterproofing. Like, I've never thought about that. That's so true.
MADELINE: Yeah, I just like I stand out like I'm an orange person now when I'm in the field.
SARAH: I would love that for you.
KAYLA: That's so funny. You always know.
SARAH: Incredible. All right. Well, you can tell us about your beef and your joos on our social media @SoundsFakePod. We also have a Patreon if you want to give us money there. Let me jump to Sarah in the future to tell you who our patrons are. One thing about Sarah from the future is she is never going to get out the real mic for a Sarah from the future patron read. She's just not. I'm sorry. Does my voice on better? I hope so. I don't know that it does though. Anyway, hi. Our $5 patrons who we’re pointing this week are Kelly, Layla, Lily, Maggie Capelbo and Mary S. Thank you. You guys rock. You are the best. Our $10 patrons who are promoting something this week are David Harris, who’d like to promote the cradle book series by Will White. Derek and Carissa, who would like to promote supporting each other through the transitions we face. Albuter, who would like to promote normalizing the use of tone indicators slash Xers. My aunt Jeannie, who would like to promote Christopher's Haven. And that's it. Our other $10 patrons are Maff, Martin Giselle, Parker, Purple Haze, Barefoot backpacker, Song of Storm, Allison, Ani, Arcness, Benjamin Ybarra, Boston Smith and Selena Dobson. Our $15 patrons are Ace, who would like to promote the writer Crystal Share. Andrew Hillam, who would like to promote the Invisible Spectrum podcast. Dia Chappelle, who would like to promote Twitch.TV/MelodyDia. Hector Murillo, who would like to promote friends that are supportive, constructive and help you grow as a better person. Nathaniel White, who would like to promote NathanielJWhiteDesigns.com, Kayla Zanina, who would like to promote KateMaggartArt.com. And our $20 patron is Dragonfly, who would like to promote ending daylight savings time. Because what do you mean it gets dark at 5 p.m. Anyway, thank you. Thanks Sarah from the future. That was so helpful. Before we wrap up, Madeline, where can the people of the Internet find you on socials, your many pen name accounts, probably not your home address unless you really want to share that.
MADELINE: I think I'll keep my home address private but thank you for the invitation of sharing.
SARAH: Okay, that's fair. Yeah of course
MADELINE: So, on socials, I am M. Dyer Authors. I'm on like Facebook, Twitter, or X as it's now called, but I'm never going to get used to calling it that. It's always going to be Twitter.
SARAH: I refuse.
KAYLA: I refuse
MADELINE: I'm also on Instagram. My pen names, Ellen Annalise, and that's like the handle for one of them. With my other pen name, I can never remember if it's Ellen Dyer or Ellen Dyer Author. I should probably try and remember that at some point because I'm always asked this and I'm never quite sure. But mainly I just use M Dyer Author anyway and I just talk about all my books across my pen names there because I haven't got enough social media presence to divide myself between three different personalities on account.
SARAH: And then if you're talking about something that falls under one of your other pen names, you can just go over there and give it a cheeky little retweet.
MADELINE: Yes. I have done that. And then I get surprised when I get a notification on my phone. I'm like, oh, someone has retweeted. It was me.
SARAH: It was me
KAYLA: It was Michelle. You got to support yourself.
SARAH: Me, when I send a post from my personal Instagram to the pod Instagram and then I immediately get the notification that we got a message.
KAYLA: That's like me posting on the podcast Instagram and then going to my personal Instagram and liking it from there. I'm like, I'm a fan. That's me. I'm my fan.
MADELINE: Oh, well, I'm glad we all do that.
KAYLA: Oh, yeah.
SARAH: Oh, yeah. I will also get notifications from Instagram that'll be like, oh, @Castielli posted to her story. And I'm like, I know, that's me.
KAYLA: That’s me
SARAH: Anyway, we will link all of Madeline's socials in the description. So, if you don't follow every single one of them
KAYLA: What are you doing?
SARAH: Frowny face. Really strong, strong statement from me.
KAYLA: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SARAH: Um, well, thank you so much, Madeline for joining us. It was a delight to have you and thank you also for editing this funky little fresh little anthology.
MADELINE: Thank you so much for having me. It was such a fun conversation as well. Apart from the cat throwing up. But…
KAYLA: Well…
MADELINE: Also, you know
KAYLA: Yeah, that's just… we have to keep them guessing, we can't be too professional on the show where people forget what show they're listening to.
SARAH: Exactly. Nioke said, I heard that Bogey was trying to bite your headphone cord.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I need to outdo that.
KAYLA: Yes. I will one up him by throwing up everywhere.
SARAH: As she should. All right. Well, thank you so much for listening. And again, thank you so much to Madeline for joining us. Tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.
KAYLA: And until then, take good care of your cows.
SARAH: Read them this book.
KAYLA: Oh, that would be nice. Oh, my cat just threw up on me.
SARAH: No way!
KAYLA: My God. Sarah.
SARAH: Oh, no
KAYLA: Sarah, continue I have to deal with the cat.
SARAH: Okay.
[END OF TRANSCRIPT]