Sounds Fake But Okay
Sounds Fake But Okay
Ep 115: Little Women, Aromanticism, and Asexuality
Hey what's up hello! This week we talk about Gretta Gerwig's new adaptation of Little Women. Jo March, the main character of the story, is super aromantic asexual and we live, die, and cry for it.
Episode Transcript: www.soundsfakepod.com/transcripts/little-women-aromanticism-and-asexuality
Read the fanfic Sarah talked about here: https://archiveofourown.org/works/20406481
Donate: patreon.com/soundsfakepod
Buy our book: www.soundsfakepod.com/book
[00:00:00]
SARAH: Hey what's up hello! Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl, I'm Sarah, that's me
KAYLA: And a demi-straight girl, that's me, Kayla
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don't understand.
KAYLA: On today's episode, Little Women.
BOTH: Sounds Fake But Okay.
[Intro Music]
SARAH: Welcome back to the pod!
KAYLA: M’eg.
SARAH: That's true.
KAYLA: It's thematic and good.
SARAH: It's thematic and good.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Uh, thank you all for your patience as we were gone for a week. We're now a bi-coastal podcast.
KAYLA: It's true. Sarah is in LA. I am on the other one.
SARAH: On the other one, yep.
KAYLA: Mm-hmm.
SARAH: Uh, I had to spend a lot of time at the DMV today, so…
KAYLA: That's very fun and good.
SARAH: Adulthood. Adulthood. Um, but here's the thing. I saw Little Women on Monday. And um, oh, what are we talking about this week?
KAYLA: Oh, we're talking about Little Women.
SARAH: Yeah, okay.
KAYLA: The movie. It was a book.
SARAH: Listen… listen, we take a week off and all of a sudden…
KAYLA: Also, by the way, thank you to all of our… or like welcome, I guess, to all of our new listeners. We've been getting…
SARAH: Hello.
KAYLA: A lot lately. So, hello.
SARAH: Thank you for joining us on this party party train. Um, okay. I watched Little Women. Was emotionally compromised for reasons of aro-aceness. Uh, so I made Kayla watch it.
KAYLA: I was already going to go see it, but then I had to see it immediately.
SARAH: Yes.
KAYLA: So, I saw it last night.
SARAH: Yeah, there has been some discussion on the internet about Jo March being an aro-ace icon.
KAYLA: Okay. We need to go over the plot first.
SARAH: Yes.
KAYLA: Because there's bound to be people who have no idea what this is at all.
SARAH: Yeah, spoilers ahead, but the book is hundreds of years old, so.
KAYLA: Yes, that's true. Okay, do you want to do it? Do you want me to do it?
SARAH: Uh, you do it.
KAYLA: Okay, so…
SARAH: Because I'm going to say a lot of things later.
KAYLA: It's true. Okay, so Little Women is a book. It was published in 1968 by Louisa May Alcott.
SARAH: Wasn't really published that recently.
KAYLA: Yes. It was actually published in two parts. The first part was Little Women, the second part was Little Wives, and then they were combined. Anyway…
SARAH: 1868 and 1869.
KAYLA: What did I say?
SARAH: 19…
KAYLA: Oh, it was 1868
SARAH: That's why I was like, there's no way that's right.
KAYLA: I'm an idiot. It was, okay, important. It was 1868, Jesus Christ, sorry. So basically, the plot follows this family and it's a family that has four daughters, so four sisters in it. And the main daughter is Jo or Josephine March. And basically, just like, it's a very domestic type story. Jo loves to write. She writes plays for her and her sisters all the time. Amy, the other sister, is a very fancy lady and likes to paint. Meg wants to be rich and Beth is...
SARAH: Meg is the oldest.
KAYLA: Meg is the oldest. None of this matters.
SARAH: That's true.
KAYLA: One of their next, so they're quite poor. Their father is off fighting in the Civil War for the North, the good side.
SARAH: Well, they didn't… they weren't always poor, but because of circumstances, they are not doing as well financially as they have to work with…
KAYLA: They're currently not doing great.
SARAH: As how they were raised.
KAYLA: And their dad is off in the war currently. And then...
SARAH: The Civil War.
KAYLA: I said that. And then they come to know the boy who lives next door. So, there's a very fancy rich old man who lives next door and his grandson lives with him. And his name is Theodore, but Teddy, but they call him Lori…
SARAH: Lori
KAYLA: Because his last name is Lawrence, whatever. And him and Jo are like BFFs. He's obviously in love with her from the beginning, but Jo has no interest at all in anyone. So that's basically important, mark. Anyway, follows lots of years. Many things happen. Lori is… in the movie, it jumps back and forth between like the present and the past, and the present and the future, whatever. The book doesn't do that. It goes in sequential order. So basically, Beth gets sick at one point with scarlet fever, almost dies, doesn't, it's fine. Meg gets married to Lori's tutor. Lori becomes really good friends with all the girls. Dad comes home from war after like almost dying. Lori is like, Jo, I'm in love with you. And she's like, no, thank you. And then also after Meg gets married, Amy goes to Europe with her fancy great aunt to be a fancy lady. And then Jo runs off to New York and then Lori gets sad and also goes to Europe. And then…
SARAH: Well, because his marriage proposal was declined.
KAYLA: Because his marriage proposal was declined.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And then Beth gets sick again, Jo comes back, Beth dies, Amy comes back on the way back, marries Lori because while they were in Europe, they fell in love or whatever, even though Amy was in love with him the whole time.
SARAH: Amy had always been in love with him. And he had always been so blindsided by his love for Jo that he didn't really see her. But then now he's like, well, Jo is not an option.
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: And at first Amy was like, no, I don't want to be your sloppy seconds. But then she was like, but I just…
KAYLA: But then she was like I would love to be your sloppy seconds. They come back, they're like, we're married. Jo was like, what the fuck for, I guess we'll probably get into this later, that whole thing.
SARAH: We will.
KAYLA: And then this professor that Jo was like friends, but also frenemies with from back in New York comes and is like hanging out and then leaves. And then she runs after him and then they get married, which is another thing we'll talk about.
SARAH: Yes
KAYLA: That was all very confusing, but you can look it up and it'll make more sense. But also, a lot of people are required to read Little Women for school and it's also a very old book. I think the most important things are, main character Jo is like a tomboy-esque lady. Lori is in love with her. She frequently talks about how she never wants to get married, all that kind of stuff.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: And we'll get, yes, begin.
SARAH: Yeah. So, Jo to me is the kind of character that obviously she's not explicitly aro-ace because this book was written in 1868. And even in the Greta Gerwig adaptation of the film, it's not like they're like, oh, look at this aro-ace person. But to me, as an aro-ace person, it is impossible to watch that… the Greta Gerwig adaptation of the story and not view Jo as like indisputably aro-ace
KAYLA: Yeah, I think…
SARAH: Everything she does is so, so aro-ace.
KAYLA: There are so many things that she says in the movie, book, whatever, that are things that you have literally said to me.
SARAH: Oh, like, absolutely.
KAYLA: Or like situations we've been in. The asexual piece to me, I feel like I could take or leave because it's not like sex is ever explicitly talked about.
SARAH: Right.
KAYLA: But aromantic is like, it's so obvious.
SARAH: Yeah. Yeah. So, then here's the tea. I cried for an hour watching this film. I cried for half of the film. I cried for all of it. Yes, there are sad parts of the movie, but like, it's not like a Les Mis situation where like, yeah, you're meant to cry the whole time, which I did, by the way. But…
KAYLA: I cried during happy parts in the beginning when they were just being sisters. I already was crying.
SARAH: Um, yeah, but the thing is, is once I started crying, I did not stop at all. And I was like, I don't know what to do with this information. I can't find my napkins. I don't know what's going on. But here's… so here's the rundown of why this affected me so much. It also goes hand in hand with a fan fiction I read recently.
KAYLA: Wait, can I ask you something?
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Is this the first Little Women encounter you've had?
SARAH: Mm-hmm. It is
KAYLA: Interesting.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Can I tell you something about this movie?
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: That you might know. Um, so obviously it going back and forth between time periods is not how the book was. Um, they also in this adaptation, and you might know this, but maybe other people don't, they so the book is loosely based on the author's life. It's probably pretty accurate, but who's to say it's loosely based on her life and her sister's. Um, and so in the Greta Gerwig film that just came out, they took details that were later discovered about the author's life and wove those into the movie. So, at the end of the movie, when she is getting her book Little Women published, she has this conversation with the publisher about how there needs to be a romantic ending. So, the character of Jo goes to the publisher and in the end Jo does not marry the professor, and the guy is like, she needs to marry someone. Women in this time period want to see other women getting married. You need to have them get married. So, she writes that ending. This is, I think, extremely important and good. My previous exposure to Little Women is seeing the musical, and she obviously marries the professor in that. So, in the original Little Women, she just, you know, she marries him. There's nothing, you know, there's no big discussion about, I mean, I don't remember, there's probably discussion about the book getting published, but like, will there, won't there be a romantic ending? It's never talked about. There just is that romantic ending. Um, and so to me, that's a huge part in like, because they, I guess they knew that this lady had then, he had either had this conversation or never actually got married, whatever. I don't know. But to me, that's extremely important because her marrying the professor literally never makes, made sense when I have ever encountered Little Women.
[00:10:00]
SARAH: Oh, no. Like when, when that was like, when she was like chasing after him, I was like crying because it was wrong. Like…
KAYLA: Yeah, and I think a lot of people...
SARAH: Was upset because it felt so wrong.
KAYLA: And a lot of people that read Little Women, I feel like, think that. And even in the book, or in the movie, she's like, okay, but like the whole time this character has been talking about how she doesn't want to get married, this doesn't make sense. And the guy is like, I don't care. You have to end it that way. So, for me, that was huge because the whole movie, I was like, she's so aromantic. How are they possibly going to end this movie with her marrying the professor? Like most of them. And they do show her marrying the professor, but it kind of shows it as like, okay, here's what happens in the fiction. They never explicitly say that the character actually does. So, it's this very interesting in between of like, are we seeing Jo's real life or what Jo wrote in the novel, which is like very meta because the movie is the novel. So, it's like this very meta thing. But I think that's very important to know if you have previous exposure with Little Women or if this was your first time seeing it, that that whole thing is an add-on with this movie. But I think it's very important, especially for seeing Jo as aromantic.
SARAH: It's definitely like a commentary on like the what we see in the movie reflects what the publisher is making Jo do. It's like a vicious cycle. Like and so that was the one thing that like, although her getting with the professor felt so wrong to me and at first, I was very upset, but then I kind of saw what was happening like with her like talking to the publisher. And I was like, okay, so this isn't really happening. Like right, she's doing what she has to get through.
KAYLA: Yeah, right. And I think it adds even more to the commentary of kind of like the feminism of the piece. I mean, a lot of the movie talks about like how it was an economic necessity for women to marry rich and like how women couldn't make their own money. And then Jo was actually able to make her own money, which was huge, but obviously had to do it like in the way that this publisher man wanted her to. So, it really, I mean, in all areas that addition to the movie adds so much and makes the weird ending with her marrying the professor in the actual book make sense.
SARAH: It makes sense. Yeah. Okay, me crying. Okay, so twice in the past week have I watched or read something that made me cry because of the ace representation or the aro representation, more specifically.
KAYLA: This is true
SARAH: That has never happened to me before. I know that in the last episode we talked about improved, like aspec rep in media, but I… as I'm sure some of you know, I've never really watched any of that because some of it we mean to and we just haven't done yet. But I was also never drawn to those shows. I didn't feel the need to watch the shows just for the rep because I didn't necessarily see myself in them because it was often just ace or something else under the ace umbrella, not aro specifically. And I feel like my aro identity has a greater impact on my life than my ace one does.
KAYLA: Which is interesting because we talk about it much less.
SARAH: We do. And like when it comes to my own personal identity, I do have the tendency to do what allos often do and I kind of lump the aroness and the aceness together. I kind of conflate them. They feel the same to me. But, you know, that's not totally true which is kind of how it gets… the easiest way to talk about it. The way I view myself and the way I experience attraction or don't experience attraction is that I'm not romantically attracted to people and therefore I'm not sexually attracted to people and I know it's not automatically a therefore situation. Although for demi people it might be because, you know, the orientations are more closely linked because of what being demi means. But to me it kind of feels like it is because, like, I know for sure that I'm ace. I've waffled a little bit more in my aroness but if I don't feel romantic attraction to someone, I definitely don't feel sexually attracted to them. Like, it's like if I don't jump the aro hurdle, I know for a fact I'm not going to jump the ace hurdle.
KAYLA: Sure
SARAH: And so, my aroness as a person is just kind of more obvious in the public sphere as well. Like, society assumes for the most part that dating comes before sex and so if I'm not dating anyone people are less likely to ask me about sex or if they do it's more of a taboo sort of thing. But seeking out romantic relationships and wanting those things is an expectation and I will get asked about that. So, people will not necessarily notice if I'm not fucking someone but they will notice if I'm not dating people. So that's the preamble for this.
KAYLA: Sure
SARAH: In addition to Little Women, the other thing that made me cry, just to give a little bit of background, is it was a fanfiction because what else would I do with my life? And it was basically a character study where someone was Aro-Ace. In canon they're not Aro-Ace but they were interpreting it that way. And they were at their friend's wedding and she was really really happy for her friends, but there was also kind of reflecting on the fact that she has been told her whole life that marriage, what she's watching right now, is what she should aspire to, but she doesn't want that. And she loves her friends and her family and those are the people that matter to her, but she's in the self-reflection of this character study, fic, whatever. She's asking herself, okay, why do I have to be in a relationship? I can watch my friends be in relationships and be in love and I can genuinely be happy for them and love their love and their wedding and their happiness without wanting that for myself. And it was only like 2k, it was not that long, I cried twice. And I left a comment and I was like, what have you done to me? But… so, then that closely followed by Little Women was just a lot for me. And Kayla knows this, after I watched the movie, I came home and I had a lot of thoughts and I didn't think I was going to be able to type them fast enough so I recorded like a 15-minute-long video of me just like rambling and then I had to like transcribe it to write notes for this episode. But I'm going to walk you through some of the things that were like standing out to me at that time.
KAYLA: I am assuming that stuff you're going to talk about I will, but I will preamble with this is I also cried and I cry at everything including every movie so that's a surprise. What I will say, so I had talked to Sarah a bit before and she told me that she had cried about it and gotten very emotional. So, what I will say and you're going to hate this Sarah and it's sorry, but a lot of the times when I was crying during like some key aromantic moments, I didn't feel like I was crying for me or for Jo, I was crying for you because...
SARAH: That's so dramatic.
KAYLA: I know, but like I don't know how to explain it any other way but I like... Yeah. Not that you've never like explained things that you've gone through before or like that I don't understand them, but you're not one to get very emotional or very deep often and so this was almost like the only way for me to like really see that kind of stuff. So, at some of these moments I was like... I had a greater understanding of stuff that like you've dealt with or like talked about in like a deeper way than I felt it before, if that makes sense.
SARAH: It does. I have no idea how to react to it, but it does make sense
KAYLA: I told you you were going to hate it, but like I really did. Well because and that when I was watching it and realizing like how great of an aromantic maybe asexual whatever...
SARAH: It's just so specific. It's so good.
KAYLA: Well yeah, but it made me so happy for you and for like other aromantic people like because obviously I'm not aromantic so like that's not as huge of a thing for me, though obviously I'm very excited about the rep. Like it's obviously something I care very deeply about, but I was just so happy for you.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Because I knew how exciting it was for you.
SARAH: Right and that's... I was going to talk about this later, but you know what? I'll talk about it now. So before encountering these two pieces of media, like this was the first time I genuinely saw myself in a character that had never really happened before and before now I had known how important representation was from a more objective standpoint. Like I was like, okay I support you know increased representation of marginalized groups because I support these marginalized groups and I think it's important that we see them and that we're exposed to them and that they are shown in complex three-dimensional ways. But I had never really experienced it myself firsthand maybe with the exception of Captain Marvel like female superhero having her own movie that got me but like I had never really felt like true representation of my erroneous and it's not that I didn't realize that…
[00:20:00]
SARAH: Guys I'm so sorry for all the car alarms going off. It's not that I didn't realize that I hadn't been seeing that representation for myself, it's just that I didn't think I was missing out because by the time I got to the point where I realized that this representation was missing like I was already at the point where I was very solid in what I was and how I identified and so I was like okay I feel good about this. I don't need to see this representation. I don't need to see myself in this to figure myself out necessarily and so I knew that like if I saw a good aro representation like I would be happy for the rest of the world like kind of like you were saying when you were watching… when you were watching like that's how I thought I would feel that like wouldn't necessarily impact myself and then I would just like hope that that representation would make like life better for other people for other baby aros, that sort but now I understand it in a much more grounded way because I watched Little Women and I fucking cried for an hour straight because for the first time I like actually felt seen because like it's just you… if you're not aro, it's something that you probably don't think about yeah how pervasive romantic love is in society and I think these two situations were two places where for the first time I felt like someone in media not just like in real life but like in something I was watching in an interpretation of a book that was done in the modern day that a bunch of people are going to watch like someone got it like they had it right. And I mentioned that… I commented on that fan fiction and I told the person I was like I don't know if you're aspec but like you nailed it like this is it and the person was like “I'm not, but thank you so much.”
KAYLA: Whoa. That is crazy that they would.
SARAH: Yeah, they said they were writing it for their friend who was…
KAYLA: Aww, stop.
SARAH: Yeah, so and like I personally have never really known someone or… that's not true I've never known someone super well who is Aro-Ace and feels on the same page as me and like has the same difficulties. Like I've known them in passing or like I've spoken to them like online through the podcast or other things but like I've never really had like a super close like relationship with anyone who understands that and so watching it was like oh shit like no I'm not the only one because you know when you're Aro you're used to being the only Aro around but that doesn't mean it doesn't suck.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: It does and so being able to see yourself in mass media or a little fanfic is...
KAYLA: We should link that fanfic.
SARAH: Well, I will, it's Schitt's Creek because of course it is. It's about Stevie Weinstein. We'll link it, but I… it just… I was like holy fuck I feel seen and I don't know what to do except cry about it.
KAYLA: Well and also like I said we talk about this kind of stuff literally every week and like you're like probably my closest friend and it just shows.
SARAH: Thanks.
KAYLA: You're welcome. Just like the power and I studied media yes I was in a feminism class like obviously this is a thing that I knew too but like the power of I am so in this community and you would think I would understand so well but movies are still so powerful that this is the thing that really drove it home for me because like there's something about seeing someone's entire life on a big screen portrayed by amazing actors and written well that like can really help you empathize and sympathize with someone in a really deep way and like especially like the character in the movie is very emotional and kind of open about talking about this stuff in a way that like you aren't no offense but like that…
SARAH: I am in my own head just not with other people
KAYLA: Well, no I know and like that's uh… there's obviously nothing wrong with that, but it's still like it still shows even if you know someone that's aro you're really good friends with them like representation is still so important because it can help you even more you know
SARAH: Yeah, yeah and like sidebar not only is really great aro representation it's Sersha fucking Ronan I love her so much to begin with
KAYLA: It’s very good
SARAH: Oh, anyway also I’m now in love with Florence Pugh, so.
KAYLA: Which one is that?
SARAH: Amy
KAYLA: Yeah, she's very good
SARAH: Yeah, um and Emma Watson of course we know and I realized that the girl who played Beth looks like my host sister in Germany, I spent like half the movie… half the movie crying half the movie trying to figure who she looks like, anyway
KAYLA: Which Little Woman do you think I am?
SARAH: Meg
KAYLA: Yeah, that's what I said
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Okay anyway
SARAH: I know I kind of hesitated when I said it but the thought did not hesitate when it came to my mind
KAYLA: Okay, I also thought I was a Meg, anyway
SARAH: I'm definitely Jo, Hundo P Jo, she's a writer, bitch so much going on there, anyway
KAYLA: Anyway
SARAH: Anyway, where was I? And like yes we made a musical that was about being aro-ace
KAYLA: Oh yeah
SARAH: Um
KAYLA: Oh, actually I did have that thought during the movie of like oh we kind of snatched the plot of Little Women a little bit
SARAH: I had never read it
KAYLA: I know, no I know, it just is kind of similar and I was like oh tea but you had never read it and you wrote…
SARAH: All plots are the same, let’s be real.
KAYLA: That’s fair
SARAH: Nothing is original, um that was… I could see how that might be important to other people like to be able to see that sort of thing but for me it didn't feel as powerful because I had made it like it's a sort of situation where it's like you know if what you want isn't out in the world like make it yourself and like yeah it's cool because we did that but also I didn't have the experience of like being able to watch someone else get it for the first… like…
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like it was like the person I’m identifying with is myself…
KAYLA: Because you wrote yourself in the musical
SARAH: Because I wrote it and that's less impactful so to be able to see that like other people get it helped it kind of settle into like oh I understand this better now
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Um do you want me to walk through all the things I relate to with Jo?
KAYLA: Yes. I think we should go over like the most aro moments
SARAH: Okay
KAYLA: I have two
SARAH: I'm kind of curious as to what you think… yeah, do yours first
KAYLA: Okay my two are at least the ones I wrote down are one so when Meg the oldest sister gets married Jo is really really upset and she's like… they're like getting ready for the wedding Jo is like Meg we can run away together like we can go we can like make our own money we can like you don't have to get married you don't have to do this and Meg is like Jo like I want to get married I want to marry what's his face and Jo is like just distraught she's like…
SARAH: John, is his name John?
KAYLA: I was thinking that
SARAH: Okay
KAYLA: Um but Jo is just distraught. She's like I don't want to lose you, you're leaving me, childhood is over and I was like Sarah and I have talked about how she's afraid that she'll lose everyone once they get married so that was like…
SARAH: You’ve been the Meg and I've been the Jo
KAYLA: Yes, like we are literally Meg and Jo, um…
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: So that was the first one because I was like…
SARAH: Wait I have things to say about that
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: Can I expand?
KAYLA: That was… yeah
SARAH: Okay
KAYLA: No, you actually can't
SARAH: No, you can't speak. Um okay that was a big thing for me because I think that's a very specifically aro feeling and it's not that other people might not feel upset if people close to them get married because they're you know they are going to spend a lot more time that's possibly on this relationship and maybe less time with you but I think that specific like fear that like they're going to just like straight up leave you is very aro um I think… and I think people who are alloromantic who might kind of also be in a similar situation it's a little bit of a different situation from my perspective not that I’m allo and would know um but it feels to me like if you're allo in that situation it's partially like yes you feel like you're losing the person but it's also I think a little bit of jealousy like I hope to have that someday like I you know I don't want to be the one single one while all of my friends are married like I want to have that for myself but when you're aro it's like I know i'm not going to have that someday and yes QPR is our thing I not don't want to go over that but like go over I don't want to brush over, it doesn’t matter
KAYLA: You don't want to take away from the importance and reality of those?
SARAH: Yes, but here's the thing is that like my own perspective and listeners if you have a different perspective, I hope you do honestly but sorry about it uh I… for me like when I think of QPR I'm like what are the actual odds like what are the odds
KAYLA: Well, because you are…
SARAH: I would actually…
KAYLA: You're not super interested in QPRs anyway
SARAH: Yeah, well because it's like the person I would need in a QPR with me… interesting um would probably also be aro-ace
[00:30:00]
KAYLA: Sure
SARAH: Or a person who's like perfectly content not having romantic and sexual relationships and they'd have to be a person I got along with very well, like… and a person that I liked a lot like what are the… like there are so few aro-ace people
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like what are the odds? And so like I know I’m going to die alone and that's chill and I can be really happy for my friends getting married but still be afraid that said friends are going to leave me and like because I know that I’m probably never going to have a partner like that like there's just the fear that like they're going to leave me and I’ll be alone and that alone is the same as being lonely and it'll be sad and everyone will have left me because they like their significant others more than me and that is definitely what Jo is experiencing in that scene
KAYLA: Yeah for sure like she's very and like Meg even says like oh one day this will be you and Jo is like no probably not
SARAH: I don't… I don't want it to be me
KAYLA: No, she literally was… she said something about like I’d rather be a spinster and like pedal my own kind of or something, yeah
SARAH: Yeah, yeah and it's like I think one of the big things that that scene really grasps well is not just like oh I feel like I’m being left alone it's also like it feels like this person is picking their romantic relationship over me, like they're choosing to marry this person and spend more time with this person because they like that person more than they like me and I think that was definitely an insecurity that was kind of shown when Jo was like you don't have to do this like we should… we can leave and Meg was like no I want to do this and Jo was like but also no
KAYLA: Yeah, well, yeah and I think obviously like she was still a young person at that point and I think it also just shows that like and even Meg tells her like just because my dreams are yours doesn't mean they're not dreams it's also just like a very much so like a learning moment of a young person coming to understand that like other people have different ideas than them which…
SARAH: Just because Meg's dreams are different than hers, you said just because my dreams are yours
KAYLA: Whatever
SARAH: You're doing great
KAYLA: It's fine but I think like obviously in that moment it was Jo learning that lesson but I think that's a lesson that like a lot of allos could…
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Use
SARAH: Absolutely, what was your other thing that you wrote down that was very…
KAYLA: Okay well I guess now the other one would be like her… now I’m thinking of a different one which is another one which is this of like her rejecting Lori's proposal…
SARAH: That was another thing I…
KAYLA: Which like I guess I brushed over it because it was like obviously she was going to reject him but when rejecting him she did talk about a lot of things of like I don't think I’m ever going to get married and like I literally can't love you like I just… like she was… I think at one point she said I tried and it didn't work and he was like you're going to fall in love with someone else and marry them and I’m going to have to watch and she's like I don't think so like I really don't think I’m ever going to get married it's really not about you um..
SARAH: And like he feels like it's about him and that's not his fault necessarily…
KAYLA: No
SARAH: That like he feels hurt by this it's just that like he… especially because they don't have the language to be like I’m aro like she doesn't have a real way to explain to him that like… because here's the deal, here's the thing that I thought was very important with this scene is that she loves Lori like she loves him a lot but she doesn't love him in the way he wants her to because she can't… you're totally right this is the plot of Bloom um…
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: And childhood friends who?
KAYLA: Childhood friends me
SARAH: Um but like and so like when Lori goes off and marries Amy like it still hurts because Jo does love him and Amy can be something for him that she could never be and that makes her sad and you know just because she's aro doesn't mean she can't mourn the life she could have had with Lori I mean you could say like she's mourning it because it's you know if she were different it's the life she would have had but it doesn't even have to be that it could just be like if she had married him anyway like
KAYLA: Right, and I think the movie does go into that too and that was the other scene that I had
SARAH: Is it the women scene?
KAYLA: Yes, so she's…
SARAH: Me too, we're on the same page
KAYLA: Good um so there's a part like she comes home because Beth is sick and she's like spending time with her family whatever she wants to give up writing because the stupid professor told her she sucked anyway but she's talking to her mom and she's like I think I was too soon in rejecting him like I shouldn't have rejected Lori like whatever and her mom is like well do you love him and she was like well I don't know it's more like I want to be loved and blah blah blah whatever and there's this like really powerful moment where she's talking about like women are more than their hearts, they have souls, they have minds, their work, like they're for more than just getting married and no one understands that and she talks about how she's just so lonely, she's so lonely and that I like was sobbing at that because it is so powerful and then she goes and she writes Lori a letter about how like I’ll marry you like I’m sorry I rejected you blah blah blah, I married you luckily he doesn't get the letter but then he comes home right after and he is like I married your sister which is I think another reason why she's very shocked because… and probably relieved because she probably realizes like oh good but…
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: It's… there's a lot in that scene because even her mom knows like you don't love him, you shouldn't do this like wanting to be loved and like loving someone is different so…
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Yeah, but I mean I totally understand that she was like why she was willing to marry Lori because society expects certain things of you and if you know if Lori knew that she didn't love him in the way that he wanted her to which he did know that and if he still wanted to marry her anyway which was kind of the implication during the proposal scene like that would have been like as close as she could get
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: To like what society expects of you or what society puts on this pedestal and thinks is good like you know she… like that would have been her best attempt you know and the thing is is she would have been happy that way too it's not like it was just like oh look to the outside world I look like I'm “normal” like she would have been happy married to him it's just she would not have been able to give him what he necessarily wanted from a wife um…
KAYLA: Right
SARAH: But… although he does love her
KAYLA: Right, and I don't even necessarily know that she would be super happy obviously they're very good friends they get along very well but like she consistently talks about how she doesn't want to get married, she loves being free, she wants to make her own way in the world so I don't even know that she would be happy because she would have to have children because that's… you can't get married and not have children back then. Lori is also very rich she would have to be like a fancy lady, you see earlier in the movie that she doesn't like being fancy she doesn't like going to balls and dancing and whatever so like I don't even know that she would be happy but I do… I think it was a really powerful moment of her almost caving and saying I know I… like she clearly knows she doesn't love him she isn't even able to lie to her mother and say she loves him but she's willing to do it anyway because she's so lonely because one of her sisters is dead, one is in France, and the other is married with kids and then there's her mom and now she can't write because the professor is a dick so like what does she have left except for exactly Lori to fall back on
SARAH: Exactly. Yeah, and when I was saying that like she would be happy with him I guess you're right in the sense that like she wouldn't be happy in a married life but if she had to be married to anyone…
KAYLA: Sure
SARAH: Lori is who she would be happy
KAYLA: It's the best option for sure
SARAH: Yeah, um and you know…
KAYLA: Not that dick professor
SARAH: Not that dick professor um… well… he's… he's not… okay I don't know that he's totally a dick, he’s just very…
KAYLA: The way he's portrayed in the musical which is the only other version of Little Women I’ve seen he's kind of a dick
SARAH: Oh, okay that's fun. Um well anyway um but like you know and that like the her being so lonely thing I was like I get that because like that's what… when you’re aro that's what it feels like is like… like what I said earlier about um like not wanting your friends to leave you at the beginning of the movie when she's like… when she's telling Meg like oh like you don't have to do it we can run away like that's her being like afraid for the future of like people leaving her but then in that scene where she's talking to her mom and she's like I’m so lonely like I would marry Lori that's like the manifestation of what happens when you're… like all the people closest to you do kind of leave you and I think in the modern day that's less of a thing or it doesn't have to be as much of a thing…
KAYLA: See I even wonder… because I’m kind of relating it to… and I know like you never did this of like you never dated anyone when you were still questioning but the amount of like gay people that are like I was like in my mind I was like I might be gay but I dated women anyway or I dated men anyway to me that's like kind of the modern version of that is like…
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: You might know or like have an inkling or a gut feeling that like that's not really what you want but you date whoever anyway to like repress it or to prove something or just so you don't have to deal with how hard it is
[00:40:00]
SARAH: Yeah and I think in modern society although social norms tell you that it still is like the right thing to get married and have kids or whatever um there's less shame for not doing it than there was in the time that like this was written and when it takes place and so I think what happens to Jo and like the loneliness that happens because of it is just like an example of what would happen if you do kind of impose those social norms on yourself or if the people around you impose them on you um and so like it's definitely a show of like, like I don't necessarily feel like currently in my life like Jo does in that scene but like I’m in constant fear of feeling that way
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Oh man
KAYLA: Yep
SARAH: And also the other minor thing that you kind of mentioned from that scene where like she's saying that like women have always existed as in like… as individuals like I think another important thing from this movie which we actually touched on a little bit uh in the self-partnered episode where we're talking about Emma Watson um is about how Emma Watson plays Meg and it took her like some time to kind of come to terms and understand that like what Meg wants is to get married and have kids and you can want different things and that can all be okay and yeah the publisher is still going to push it on you that you know you… the character has to get married at the end of the book and that sucks so bad but it doesn't have to stay that way and you know now that we're 150 years in the future like we can keep pushing to make sure it doesn't… we don't stall in a place where that's the norm
KAYLA: Yeah and that… like that sentiment I think… obviously this movie was very feminist but I think that sentiment especially struck me as incredibly like the good kind of feminist not like the white or like the commercialized version of feminist is I think a lot of people might look at women who like get married or have kids as like well you're not a feminist because you know x, y, z you're not a pure feminist but there's you know the higher more ascended more galaxy brain of feminists where it's like no even if a woman wants “traditional” things like they can still have these values they're you know what they want is just different and they exhibit their ideas and their values in different ways
SARAH: And I think in another adaptation of this story Amy could very easily be made out to be like a villain of some sort
KAYLA: Oh, for sure
SARAH: But in Gretta Gerwig’s adaptation she's not and I think that's really important because like Amy… like all of the other sisters everyone else in the story is just doing her best
KAYLA: I know, there's a scene where the grandmother or the great aunt literally talks to young Amy and is like your sisters are all stupid to save your family you have to marry rich and she just like says this to Amy and Amy is very clearly shaken and like it still affects her later, she later is like very…
SARAH: She internalizes it
KAYLA: Yeah, she's very stressed about like the economics of getting married, she thinks about it a lot, she's very stressed about it, but like… so yeah even though… like you could easily interpret her as like a villain like oh she just wants to marry rich, oh she steals Lori all this stuff but like no
SARAH: And she has that conversation with Lori where she's like you know it's easy for you because you're a man and you're rich but for someone like me I’m a woman, I… there are very few ways for women to make their way
KAYLA: Well, yeah because he's like oh if you like painting you should just paint and be fine and like you don't have to marry this other guy Fred and she's like no it's not as easy as that like you can't just go around willy-nilly like making decisions when you're a woman like you might get to binge drink and do nothing all day but like
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: Excuse me
SARAH: Yeah, and like does she really love Fred?
KAYLA: No
SARAH: No, but was she straight up about to marry him anyway because it was the right thing for her life and her family? Yeah
KAYLA: Because her family needed money and no one else in her family was going to like marry into money and she knew that
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: The whole thing… I mean like aromantic stuff aside like there's just so much good stuff in the movie
SARAH: There is
KAYLA: It's like incredibly feminist and like it's still very… like it's a book from the 1800s but it's still so relevant
SARAH: It is, and it really celebrates platonic relationships, it celebrates the familial relationships um…
KAYLA: Like women supporting each other like…
SARAH: Absolutely
KAYLA: Like she… Jo could have easily hated Amy and been like I’m never talking to again like there are times in the movies where the sisters fight obviously because they're sisters but like…
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And then at the end Jo was like I’m going to open a school for girls because girls should get educated and like all of this stuff and there's even talk in the movie about like how it's hard when girls who are richer than you are like kind of nasty to you and you feel very peer pressured like there's just so much stuff that's like just it's… oh… it's so good
SARAH: Guys you should watch this movie if you haven't already
KAYLA: I need to read it this makes me want to read it really bad
SARAH: Yeah, me too
KAYLA: Book club
SARAH: Book club, don't tell Amanda
KAYLA: Don't tell Amanda, oopsie
SARAH: No, we're not doing her book first
KAYLA: Um yeah, it's… I mean it's just…
SARAH: That's kind of all I had to say
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: A lot of crying ensued especially especially, especially if you're aro please watch this movie
KAYLA: During the scene where she's like I’m so lonely I was straight up sobbing like it was horrible it was ugly and horrible
SARAH: Yeah, or if…
KAYLA: Did you go see this alone?
SARAH: I was with Erin
KAYLA: Oh, I also saw…
SARAH: And then never mind
KAYLA: I saw it alone and it's the first time I ever saw a movie alone and I was like this is good because I look ugly as hell
SARAH: Yeah, no I saw it with Erin, our friend Erin who wrote the music for Bloom and…
KAYLA: It was on a pod episode once
SARAH: She was on a pod episode about bisexuality and at the end of the movie I just look at her and I go, Erin I’ve been crying for an hour straight and she goes oh no
KAYLA: That's so funny
SARAH: Um but uh… wait where… what were we saying?
KAYLA: That you simply must see it, you just might
SARAH: You simply must see it, if you have someone close to in your life who is aro definitely watch it, it I think will help you understand them a lot better and understand their insecurities and what they struggle with
KAYLA: No, it so… it so does as someone who isn't aro and know someone aro like it was… like it really… it really did
SARAH: Yeah, it's also just a good fucking movie and it's directed by Gretta Gerwig and she's a queen
KAYLA: And she got snubbed so
SARAH: She always gets snubs, women always get snubs I don't want to talk about it
KAYLA: Tea
SARAH: Also, I’m just going to note that all the examples I’ve given in this episode of people I relate to have been white women and let's change that
KAYLA: That's fair. I saw there was some dumb discourse about how like little women isn't like diverse racially and it's like okay well first of all it was written about the civil war era we don't need little women to be diverse we need stories that are about women who are diverse
SARAH: Yeah, and also like there's… it's not a major plot point but like they do talk about like how their family is like…
KAYLA: Slavery is bad
SARAH: Yeah, slavery is bad, like their family is on the right side of things
KAYLA: Big news y'all, big news
SARAH: Big news, um but it's just like that's not the focus of the story and…
KAYLA: Basically, all this is to say that people… we should have things that are about diverse people
SARAH: Yes, that are not just like added as an afterthought but like the story is about them, Little Women just… you would have to redo the entire story if you were to make them people of color
KAYLA: Well, it would just simply not be during the Civil War era
SARAH: Or it would have to be just like in a different country
KAYLA: Yeah, I don't know
SARAH: Yeah, all right anyway that's the tea please go see Little Women um what's our poll for this week?
KAYLA: Little Women?
SARAH: Have you seen Little Women?
KAYLA: Uh is… uh how much did you cry? Um…
SARAH: So much
KAYLA: Do you read Jo…
SARAH: I got a headache afterwards
KAYLA: I had a headache this morning I think it was from crying, um do you read Jo March the main character of Little Women to be aromantic…
SARAH: Social-romantic
KAYLA: Social… sure uh to be aromantic asexual?
SARAH: Yes, the answer is yes
KAYLA: Sure
SARAH: What is your beef and juice this week?
KAYLA: Uh oh my God there's a lot but uh my juice is Little Women and also, I bought myself a paint by number for adults I’m excited to do it. Um uh my beef is I had a headache this morning it sucked and also I just came home after… I just came back to like Connecticut after being home for the holidays and I have like post-holiday depression and also other stuff and it um would not recommend
SARAH: I now have California license plates and a California ID and all that kind of… oh my God I almost just dropped my microphone, hello my microphone is rejecting California
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: What the hell? oh there was a plane anyway, so. uh but I like still have not really internalized the fact that I live here
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Um that does have to do with my beef though, can I tell you, my beef?
KAYLA: No
[00:50:00]
SARAH: My beef is that the state of California wouldn't let me get a real ID, so in the United States starting in October of 2020
KAYLA: Oh my god I’m so annoyed by this
SARAH: To travel on a plane you have to have something called real ID, it's just a fucking star on your driver's license
KAYLA: So, fucking…
SARAH: Is all it is, my Michigan license plate license plate, license plate? my Michigan id already has real ID, I already have the star but the state of California wouldn't let me get this star because I didn't have paper copies of bills with my name and address on them because I haven't paid the bills yet because I’ve been here for a week
KAYLA: Good
SARAH: And you had to have one proof of address to get your license but you had to have two to get your license with real ID and I just didn't have two and then once I got there I realized that I had renter's insurance that I could use but she was like no it has to be printed out and if you leave to print it and come back you'll have to get at the end of the line and I was like what the fuck? also I don't have a printer to get my other stuff printed I had to ask Erin to print it at her work
KAYLA: Good
SARAH: And then I had to drive to Beverly Hills to get it because when I saw her a few days before in a more convenient location when we saw Little Women, we both had forgotten about it
KAYLA: Good
SARAH: Um and I was like bitch there is no fucking way I am going to go through all this again just to get a fucking star also in Michigan it's just like a you know this… it's a yellow circle and there's like a cut out of a star in California it's like the Californian bear
KAYLA: It’s the bear
SARAH: And then the cut out of the star but the cut out of the star is like in the butt it's like a bear with a star in its butt and I was like bitch I will go without the stupid yellow star and I will just use my passport card every time I go to the goddamn airport
KAYLA: That’s so fair
SARAH: Until I need to renew my license again because I’m not doing this
KAYLA: Fair
SARAH: And if they don't like that I still have my Michigan license which is technically still valid which it won't really be because I’ll have a California one but it's not like they scan it, they just look at it
KAYLA: True
SARAH: Also, my car doesn't have holes for a front license plate um which I was reading on the internet about this and they were like most states require a front license plate why do cars not have them and I was like I’ll tell you why because these cars are designed in Michigan where it is not required to have a front license plate
KAYLA: I didn't even know that some states made have that, that's wild
SARAH: Oh most states
KAYLA: Oh fun
SARAH: I'm not sure if it's most states population-wise… no it has to be most state population-wise because California and New York both require it, but it's… I don't have holes and so I like… I had started to put my California plates on my car and then I had to put my Michigan plate back on because I was talking to my dad and I could not put the front plate on and you can't drive around with just one plate on although people in California like to drive around with no plates so who knows
KAYLA: Uh-huh
SARAH: What's your juice?
KAYLA: I already did my both, I did both of them
SARAH: I got distracted
KAYLA: We need to wrap this up, I have a mall to go to
SARAH: Sorry, my juice is Fleabag the tv show, season two was fucking amazing Phoebe Waller-Bridge is a genius, I know this is old news but like I finally watched it and holy fucking shit it's so good. Um, Harry Styles wearing… whoa no, no, my other juice is Harry Styles watching someone's dog so that they could go to a restaurant to pick up their carryout um because the restaurant didn't let dogs come in and the person was like I have my dog I need to get my food and Harry Styles was just like oh I’ll watch your dog
KAYLA: That's wild
SARAH: We love it. That's my juice and my beef, that's the tea. All right, um you can tell us about your beef, your juice, your love of Little Women um on our social media @soundsfakepod, we also have a Patreon um for those of you who are patrons we did put a post up recently asking you a question about possibly changing some perks um that's not in effect this episode but it probably will be next episode so if you have… if you're a patron and you have thoughts on that that you'd like to share please look at our patreon um contribute to the conversation, we have been taking people's thoughts into consideration um but we're just getting to the point where we have so many patrons that it's hard…
KAYLA: Which is a great problem to have
SARAH: It's a great thing
KAYLA: Obviously
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And we've gotten a lot more recently as like we've been getting a lot new… a lot of new listeners recently because we've had some people tweet and Instagram about us which is amazing and awesome but it's a lot you guys are too good
SARAH: Yeah, you really are like in our doc where we have like the patrons and stuff it's like two pages worth
KAYLA: Which is insane
SARAH: I mean it's like each one gets their own line but it's still…
KAYLA: It’s a lot
SARAH: Two minutes’ worth, it's a lot. Um, so our $2 patrons are Keith McBlaine, Roxanne, AliceisinSpace, Anonymous, Mariah Walter, Jonathan, Christopher T Verdieri, Patrick Jackson, Andrew Yang, Ninny, Courtney Jones, Eric B, Amanda Jentinon, Maddie, Purple Haze, Blizzinator, Dia Chappelle, Drew Yang, these are all new ones this is so exciting I've never… I've never read them before Eric Chekoskis that's my guess Jennifer Rosenbloom, Jonathan, Kara B, Martin Washburn, Val, and Soph that is…
KAYLA: Oh my god I did not realize that's how many new ones there was, holy shit
SARAH: There are one two three four five six seven eight nine ten new ones since we last recorded
KAYLA: That's insane thank you all so much
SARAH: Holy fuck, you're all wonderful
KAYLA: I also can't remember who it is but someone was like I'm binging right now and as soon as I finish binging I'm going up more than two dollars and I was like oh
SARAH: Oh
KAYLA: I'm sorry I can't remember who you are, but we will know
SARAH: They'll hear us eventually
KAYLA: Okay, bye
SARAH: Um, our $5 patrons are Jennifer Smart, Astritha Vinnakota, Austin Ley, Drew Finney, Perry Fiero, Dee, Megan Rowell, Quinn Pollock, Emily Collins, Tim, Ryan Lutzietti, BookMarvel, Changeling MX, that is a plane stop it, Derek and Karissa, Simona Simon, and Eric Zago, Zego that person is new right?
KAYLA: I think so
SARAH: Thanks
KAYLA: Hi
SARAH: Our $10 patrons are Kevin and Tessa @dirtyuncleKevin @Tessa_m_k, Arcness who would like to promote the Trevor Project, Benjamin Ybarra who would like to promote Tabletop Games, Anonymous who would like to promote Halloween, Sarah McCoy who would like to promote a Podcast from A Planet Weird, and my aunt Jeannie who would like to promote Christopher's Haven.
KAYLA: I saw Jeannie
SARAH: Our $15 patrons… yes you did see Jeannie
KAYLA: I saw Jeannie the other day and then she in the same room replied to like an Instagram or a tweet and said I looked pretty, but we were in the same room and I was like Jeannie what's happening?
SARAH: You could have just told me to my face. Our $15 patrons are Nathaniel White, Nathanieljwhitedesigns.com, my mom Julie who would like to promote free mom hugs and she did hug you.
KAYLA: I saw her, I hugged her many times.
SARAH: Sarah Jones who is @Eternallolli everywhere and Dragonfly, what's Dragonfly promoting this week? a good time?
KAYLA: Little Women.
SARAH: Little Women, the tiniest of women so small. Thanks for listening, tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.
KAYLA: And until then, take good care of your little cows.
[END OF TRANSCRIPT]
