Ep 171: What Is Aromanticism?

Hey what's up hello! This week, we're giving you a full rundown on what aromanticism and the aro spectrum is. If you are aromantic and struggle to give the long talk that explains aromanticism to loved ones, you can use this to do the talking for you. If you’ve just learned what aromanticism is or if you were sent here by a loved one, hopefully, this episode begins to help you to learn and understand.

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Transcript

(0:00)

SARAH: Hey what’s up hello. Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl (I’m Sarah. That’s me.)

KAYLA:… and a demi-straight girl (that’s me, Kayla)

SARAH: talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else that we just don’t understand.

KAYLA: On today’s episode: aromanticism.

ALL: — Sounds fake, but okay.

SARAH: Welcome back to the pod!

KAYLA: M’erry aro week!

SARAH: Ah yes, m’erry aro week. Excellent.

KAYLA: Yeah welcome.

SARAH: Might as well just start there. It’s aro week. The day this podcast is being released.

KAYLA: Today is the first day.

SARAH: So we thought we might take this time to do an episode that has been many times requested by our listeners which is the aro TED talk.

KAYLA: Just what is aromanticism?

SARAH: Exactly. For those of you who may or may not know, we have an episode that is the asexuality TED talk, what is asexuality is episode 87, just in case you’re on the hunt for her. And we basically just did the TED talk you often have to do when people find out that you’re aspec and they’re like, please define everything for me because I don’t understand this. So we made that TED talk essentially so that it can be used as a resource whether you want to give it to your loved ones and say hey this explains so I don’t have to, or you just want to have all the information in one spot and we had people saying that they would like it if we could do a separate episode for aromanticism so here we are, finally doing it.

KAYLA: Yeah. So this episode will hopefully give a mostly comprehensive look at what aromanticism is, what it’s not, we obviously can’t explain literally everything in one episode but we will do our very best. For anyone listening right now, who isn’t a regular listener, maybe your loved one did send you here, do you want to do a short introduction of who we are Sarah, so they know why they should be listening to us about this?

SARAH: Absolutely. It is my dream to do so. Hi, my name is Sarah, I identify as aromantic-asexual, the aro identity is probably a little bit more relevant to this particular episode. Kayla unfortunately does experience romantic attraction.

KAYLA: It is a sad fact.

SARAH: I say unfortunately, no judgment on those of you who do, but you know. So we got this podcast, we talk about aspec issues, is there anything else I need to say?

KAYLA: No, I mean, yeah.

SARAH: And I’ll go into a little bit more depth of my own experience as a reference point as we’re talking about this but that’s the basics. I’m aromantic, nice to meet ya. 

KAYLA: Yes.

SARAH: Okay, so let’s start with the definition of aromantic. Kayla, do you want to start us out there?

KAYLA: Yes, so if you are aromantic, you experience little to no romantic attraction to anyone of any gender. So, romantic attraction as in being attracted to someone in a romantic way rather than in a sexual way, in a platonic way. That attraction is just not there or is only there rarely or infrequently or in only under certain circumstances.

SARAH: And that brings us to the split model of attraction which is prevalent in aromantic communities and the whole asexual-aromantic-aspec umbrella, which is the idea that romantic attraction and something like sexual attraction are not inherently the same thing. This can be a bit confusing for a lot of people, because most people the attraction that they experience towards whatever gender or genders they experience it towards, is the same for their romantic and sexual attraction, so they don’t see the difference. They don’t see the line between them. But the split model of attraction just acknowledges that there is a line somewhere between those things and then there’s also aesthetic attraction, sensual attraction, we’re not going to get into those in this episode but basically, the split model of attraction says there are all these different types of attraction and who you find yourself attracted to may differ depending on which type of attraction we are talking about.

(5:00)

KAYLA: So I think the easiest way to understand the split model of attraction is an example, for many people, your attraction sexually and romantically might be the same. So you might be a woman who is sexually and romantically attracted to men. So you would say you are heterosexual and heteroromantic. So then your attractions might be quite aligned and it might be hard to see that line. 

SARAH: And you might just call yourself heterosexual, implying that you are also heteroromantic is often how people use the terms.

KAYLA: But for someone for who their attractions might be a bit different, it is easier to see that line. So say someone is homosexual, so maybe they are attracted sexually to other men, they get aroused by men, they like having sex with men, whatever, but maybe they are aromantic. They don’t feel romantic attraction to men, women, non-binary people, anyone of any gender. So you can see that sexual attraction is there, that romantic attraction may not be there, and so it becomes kind of necessary, or at least helpful to separate them into different labels so you can have a more nuanced understanding of your attractions, what you want your relationships to look like, everything like that.
SARAH: Similarly, you might have a situation where perhaps someone is homosexual and biromantic, so they experience attraction romantically to more than one gender but they only experience attraction to one gender when we’re talking about sexual attraction. So, there are basically an infinite number of combinations.

KAYLA: The important thing about the split model of attraction and the reason it’s prevalent in aromantic communities and why we’re talking about it now as we explain aromanticism is that the idea of a romantic identity I don’t think is as prevalent as a sexual identity. Everyone has the idea of oh you might be heterosexual or homosexual, but I don’t think it’s as common to think about what your romantic identity or orientation is. But looking through the lens of the split model of attraction, we can see that okay they are separate, so that allows for specific identities like aromanticism that aren’t completely tied to a sexuality. It can be something different. 

SARAH: And there are certainly people who identify as aromantic who also identify as asexual, myself being an example of that, but you don’t necessarily have to be both. And I think we don’t want to spend this episode referencing asexuality too much because we want it to focus on aromanticism because oftentimes those two are conflated and we don’t want to do that. But I think it is worth noting that I think the reason in part that asexuality is focused upon more is, it’s hard to draw a strict line between romantic attraction and something like aesthetic or sensual attraction than it is between those things or sexual attraction.

KAYLA: Or even platonic. 

SARAH: With sexual attraction, my mind goes straight to genitalia. Not necessarily you’re attracted to a penis itself but you’re interested in doing something that involves that penis whereas romantic attraction, it’s a little bit more nebulous in terms of what it means. So, to that end, Kayla, as someone who experiences romantic attraction, can you tell us how you define romantic attraction just so we have a reference point?

KAYLA: I mean the funny thing is, it is hard to explain even for someone who does experience it. Which is I think what we’re getting at, romantic attraction and romantic feelings are much harder to define than sexual feelings or attraction. But to me when I think about romantic attraction, I often think of things like what a crush feels like, and then I go into what a crush feels like for me. So I guess the easiest way for me to describe what romantic attraction is is to describe how it’s different from being friends with someone. If I meet someone really cool, and I want to be friends with them, I don’t necessarily spend time daydreaming about what our friendship would be like, or what we would do when we are hanging out or something like that. With someone I’m romantically interested or attracted to, in my experience, you tend to get more hyperfixated on that person, they make you more nervous, you’re more worried about what they think about you, you might spend more time daydreaming about romantic scenarios, but of course those are actions. Daydreaming about someone or doing romantic activities, those aren’t necessarily linked to the feeling of romantic attraction. It’s hard to explain. 

(10:00)

SARAH: I think romantic attraction means something slightly different to everyone, and I think it’s important to mention that here, is that there are no hard and fast rules. If you want to hold someone’s hand and kiss them, how much of that is romantic attraction and how much of that is sensual attraction? There is no hard and fast line, which is difficult but it’s also freeing in some senses. The line is wherever it is for you. If that’s not the same than the person next to you, that’s okay.

KAYLA: In my description of what I see as platonic, what I see as romantic, if you’re saying like actually, I would daydream about what I want to do with this person who I want to be my friend, that’s very valid. A lot of people do do that about friendships. And again it’s not necessarily tied to actions like kissing or holding hands, which I think we’ll get into later with common misconceptions. Being aromantic doesn’t necessarily mean you don’t want to do things that are coded as romantic, it just means that the attraction isn’t there.

SARAH: So before we get too ahead of ourselves there, let’s talk about the arospec umbrella. In addition to just aromantic, there are some related aro identities. We’re not going to go into all of them here but we’re going to dip our toes in and give you a bit of context on what some of the common ones are, the ones that are talked about.

KAYLA: And just to define, in case you are new to the community, new to the terminology, exactly what Sarah’s saying. So when Sarah says the arospec, or aro spectrum, or things like the umbrella, that’s typically just how the community thinks of aromanticism. Aromantic can be an umbrella term for all of these smaller identities we are about to talk about. It can also be a spectrum. So, in the same way that sexuality, in general, is a spectrum that being bi isn’t the direct middle between being gay and being straight, things like that where everything moves on a spectrum, being aromantic can also move on a spectrum. So you might lean all the way to one side where you’ve never experienced romantic attraction in your life whatsoever, you might be closer to the other side where you do experience romantic attraction but only in certain scenarios, so when we talk about the arospec or aro spectrum, that is our way of encompassing all the identities that surround having little to no romantic attraction.

SARAH: So with that said, why don’t we go into some of the identifiers that fall in different places on that spectrum. So, one of the terms that you might hear is demiromantic. And what that means is that a person who identifies as demiromantic doesn’t experience romantic attraction to someone until they’ve formed some sort of bond with them. Now, this isn’t the same as just being friends with someone first and being interested in them. It’s that you didn’t have the capability of experiencing the attraction until you got to know them a little bit better as a person. So, this would be a situation of, you can experience romantic attraction, but only under certain circumstances. And for some people, the amount of time they need to spend knowing someone and being with that person before they get that romantic attraction may be a short amount of time. For some people, it might be years. Like with everything in honestly the whole queer community, there’s no hard and fast rules, it’s just that you need to have that bond first before you experience that attraction.

(15:00)

KAYLA: Right and I think the important thing here is that it is not a choice. It is not someone wanting to be friends first with someone before they date. It is literally, like Sarah said, the incapability of even being able to feel a romantic feeling until there is a strong bond there. Maybe it’s some sort of strong trust, some sort of strong platonic relationship, it’s different for every person, but I think it’s often described as people being friends with someone for years and then one day they’ll be like, oh my god, I have a crush on this person. It can just take a very long time and only under special circumstances is that romantic attraction going to build.

SARAH: And with this one, I can already hear people being like “but but but” in terms of people being friends first and then having that romantic attraction/experience. And again, it’s important to know that everyone interprets and experiences things differently so one person might be friends with someone and have romantic interest in them and not identify as demiromantic and another person might have a similar experience but they do identify as demiromantic even if from the outside those situations look similar.

KAYLA: I think it’s also interesting to think about how often that is the case. For me, I am not demiromantic. I have had relationships where I was friends with the person for quite a while first and then started to like them. I’ve also used dating apps and have formed crushes on people very quickly. So, it’s kind of the question of, yeah for me, that experience has happened some, where I’ve been friends with someone first but it wasn’t that I needed to be friends with someone first. And it also hasn’t happened every time. So, I think for demiromantic people it is more consistently that in any scenario, there needs to be a bond build, rather than oh yeah this one person I dated we happened to be friends first.

SARAH: Yeah program does not run unless XYZ happens first sort of situation. Another term you might hear fairly regularly in arospec spaces is greyromantic. Now, greyromantic sounds kind of vague and that’s because it is. So, people who are greyromantic will generally experience romantic attraction very rarely. For some people, that means once or twice in their life, for some people that means more often than that. Again, it really depends on the person. But a person who identifies as greyromantic, they don’t have that attraction with the same regularity or frequency of a person who might not identify on the arospec.

KAYLA: And it’s different from demiromanticism in the way of there is not anything specific that needs to happen to form the romantic attraction. It’s just that it is more rare than perhaps your average person in the population.

SARAH: Right. For me, personally, I identify as aromantic. At first, I wasn’t totally sure if I had ever really experienced romantic attraction so I kind of used the term greyromantic cause I was like, maybe I have, maybe I will, I don’t know. But then later on, I decided that aromantic was a better term for me now. That is not to say that greyromantic is a stepping stone for everyone. It is in and of itself a valid identity, and whether someone identifies as greyromantic for a little while or identifies as greyromantic for their entire life, it’s equally as valid either way. Another term that I considered while I was questioning is the term quoiromantic or WTFromantic. WTFromantic came before quoiromantic so you can guess what some of the origins of this was. People who identify this way, they tend to not really be sure if they experience romantic attraction or not. They don’t really understand the concept of romantic attraction. They feel distant from it in a lot of cases which is where the WTF comes from, which is, what even is romantic attraction? And so those people, they may feel what they feel is maybe romantic attraction, but they’re not sure. They can’t really figure out I guess where the line is. This isn’t the same as—

(20:00)

KAYLA: It’s not the same as being unsure of what your identity is as a whole. This isn’t an identity for people who are questioning. Rather it’s—earlier when I was struggling to define romantic attraction, it’s kind of that struggle, just on a deeper level of, I know I experience these close bonds with people, I know I have these certain types of relationships maybe, there’s not real way for me to tell whether it’s a romantic attraction or a platonic relationship. It’s just very nebulous. These people by identifying this way, are okay with the vagueness of what their attraction is 

SARAH: Yeah and as I mentioned earlier, to some extent, everyone has a bit of that blurriness in terms of where the line is between different types of attraction. But for quoiromantic or WTFromantic people, that blurriness exists and it continues to exist and I don’t anticipate ever clarifying where the line is. And that’s just how I identify.

KAYLA: For me, I might not be able to speak verbally what romantic attraction is but I know when I feel it, I know what it is. But these people they might feel something but still not be able to say, oh that’s what I’m feeling. And this isn’t to say, we keep saying these people aren’t able to do this, they can’t do this, we’re not saying it in a judgmental way, oh these people can’t figure out these words that society has put onto things. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with it.

SARAH: It’s not because they’re stupid, it’s because their brains, their bodies, however you want to describe where attraction comes from, it just doesn’t exist for them. And for me, I mentioned for a while, I was like, maybe I’m WTFromantic, and I felt that way because I couldn’t tell if what I had experienced with people in my life, with certain experiences, I couldn’t tell if that was romantic attraction or not. Now for me, what I ultimately decided was, no it wasn’t. But I also do kind of embrace to a certain extent the idea that it doesn’t really matter if it was or wasn’t. And I think there’s definitely some overlap between that mindset and what WTFromantic is. But they’re not inherently the same. One of them is an identity of how you experience attraction and one of them is more of a life policy of just being like, ehh, it doesn’t matter, I don’t care. 

KAYLA: So I know we just threw a lot of words and definitions at everyone, so before we move on into common misconceptions, things not to say and ask, just to round it up, if you take anything from any of this, at its core, people who are aromantic or on the aromantic spectrum or under the aromantic umbrella experience little to no romantic attraction. And that little to no can change depending on exactly how they identify. That is the core, there is little to no, never to rarely romantic attraction to anyone of any gender in that person’s life. And then you can get more granular from there. If you need a base to start with, that’s your base. 

(25:00)

SARAH: I’ve said it before, I’m going to say it again. The person who decides what little to no romantic attraction means and what terms that they use to describe that attraction, it’s up to that person and it could differ from person to person and that’s okay. Okay, deep breath everyone, how we doing? Doing good?

KAYLA: You can pause, you can go back, remember you can always come back to this. There are many things that you can read. Hopefully, I’ll be turning this episode into a written-type blog situation that you can look at eventually. There’s lots of other resources.

SARAH: We’ve got our transcript on our website.

KAYLA: We know this is a lot, don’t get overwhelmed you don’t have to learn it all at once. You don’t have to understand it all at once. This episode is always here for you to come back to, so.

SARAH: And frankly, you don’t ever have to fully grasp all of it. It’s okay if you don’t fully understand every aspect of it, as long as you’re not mean, and as long as you’re respectful about it, it’s fine. 

KAYLA: As long as you have a base understanding, you’re not going to say anything rude, you’re not going to have any of these misconceptions, we’re all good.

SARAH: Kayla, what are these misconceptions?

KAYLA: Let’s get into them. So we’re going to list out some things we’ve heard from people over the years of misconceptions that just come around when they hear someone identifies as aromantic, they hear about aromanticism, etc. So, the first one is kind of what I was getting into earlier in this episode of a person’s attraction doesn’t necessarily line up with their actions or what society deems as a “romantic activity.” So things like kissing, things like holding hands, someone who’s aromantic is fully able to do those things if they want to. And they can even be in what would be deemed as a traditional romantic relationship. There is nothing stopping someone who identifies as aromantic who doesn’t experience romantic attraction from being in a what would be looked at as a romantic relationship—going on dates, holding hands, kissing, giving flowers, all of those things we see as romantic, they’re just actions, so even though in your mind it might be kind of a, huh, if they don’t experience the attraction, why would they do those things? I understand that’s kind of a brain-bending thing to think about but people can still do that if they’re aromantic and romantic attraction isn’t the only thing that compels you to hold hands or to kiss. They’re also just physical acts that can feel nice outside of attraction. So common misconceptions that aromantic people can’t do romantic activities, be in romantic situations, it’s just not true.

SARAH: Yeah, and I think for me, even, this one it took me a little bit to wrap my head around. I was able to understand that asexual people can still have sex. That was a little bit easier for me to grasp than aromantic people can still have what’s deemed as romantic relationships. But it’s exactly the same as asexual people having sex in that they may do it because they just enjoy the sensation of it. They may do it because they have some sort of partner that wants to do these things and they want to do it with them. It doesn’t matter. The rules are all kind of made up anyway. So I understand if it takes a little bit of sitting on this one to really understand it because me as an aro person it did take a hot second, but that’s okay it’s all part of the learning process. 

KAYLA: Yeah, same for me, I think for me it’s one of the big hurdles that I still try to get over is thinking about, okay if I wasn’t romantically attracted to someone, would I still do these things? But I think it’s honestly an exercise you can do is just sitting in your head and thinking, okay if I kiss someone, what are all of the reasons I would go to kiss someone? One might be that you’re romantically attracted to them, one might be that you like how it feels, three, maybe you’re drunk and you’re not romantically attracted to them at all but you just want to. So, kind of just sitting with yourself and listing out even what are the reasons behind doing something that is seen as a romantic act. There’s a lot there besides just romantic attraction. 

(30:00)
SARAH: Yeah. And for some people, it may get to a point where when you’re trying to list those things, you can’t even come up with a reason—just because you want to. Okay, well this person might just want to too. They don’t have to experience a certain type of attraction to want to do something. The second common misconception that I want to debunk is this idea that aro or arospec people can’t or don’t have fulfilling relationships in life because they don’t have romantic attraction and/or romantic partners. Romance is such a central feature of our social order that you’ll often hear, “oh this person is still single at the age of blah blah, that’s too bad,” or you constantly have people asking you, “oh who are you dating? You should find someone so you don’t die alone” you know that sort of thing. And that can be really difficult in the same way that it is kind of entrenched in people who do experience romantic attraction, it’s also entrenched in people who don’t. And so there’s that hurdle to get over for a lot of arospec people to realize that you know, you don't need this particular type of attraction to have a fulfilling life. You can still have fulfilling relationships that aren’t romantic relationships. Or, you can have relationships that seem outwardly romantic without the attraction as we just mentioned. For me as an aro person, just because I don’t feel any romantic attraction, or in my case, I don’t have any interest in any romantic relationships, activities, blah blah blah, that doesn’t mean that I don’t still have strong bonds with people that are platonic or you know, there’s so many ways to be close to people and to have relationships with people.

KAYLA: Even outside of relationships, even if you’re someone who struggles to form bonds with anyone. Maybe you don’t have that many friends, maybe you’re not close with your family, fulfillment can be other things. It can be work, it can be where you live, if you have a pet, what you’re doing that you’re passionate about, a project you have, there are a lot of ways to be fulfilled that are outside of the relationships you have that can be very internal.

SARAH: Right and I understand the concern here cause it’s a well-meaning concern. It’s you know, I see this person and I don’t want them to be lonely. I don’t want them to be unfulfilled. But I think it’s harmful to act as if romance is the only way to find fulfillment. I know of plenty of people who get married and they have horrible marriages and they get divorced. That doesn’t sound fulfilling to me if they’re having a horrible relationship. I think we need to take a step away from the idea that romance is inherently going to fill a certain gap in our lives. It might for you, but it might not for someone else. And all of that is okay. Another misconception is that saying that you’re aro is a copout for people with commitment issues. That’s just on its face not true because aromanticism is the lack of attraction itself. Whether or not you experience attraction to a certain gender or genders does not determine whether you’re comfortable in committed relationships, whether those are romantic relationships or otherwise. So, I mean sure, there might be people who identify as aromantic who are not comfortable with long-term committed relationships. But there are also people who are not aromantic who do have trouble with commitment. So, again, they’re not the same thing.

KAYLA: I think for me this was another thing I struggled with too especially thinking about people who are aromantic and are coded as male is there is kind of the stereotype that a lot of men just like to have sex but don’t like to have committed romantic relationships. And so kind of breaking that stereotype especially for male aromantics I think is very important. It is not at all that aromantic people just want to have sex and not have romantic relationships with people. That has nothing to do with it. So, like Sarah said, there is a difference and people can still have committed relationships with other people and have a lot of strong bonds. And like we said, could still be in romantically coded relationships. It’s just that the attraction isn’t there.

(35:00)

SARAH: For example, I’m aromantic but I would say that the relationship that me and Kayla have is a committed relationship. We share a bank—we have a bank account together! We do this podcast every week, it’s something that we do together and have committed to doing together. And there are certain things, there’s a give and take of what each of us needs to do to contribute to this relationship in a professional context and in a more personal context. And you know, just because I’m aro doesn’t mean that’s not possible for me because clearly it is. Another misconception is the idea that just because a person is aro it also means that they are asexual, in the same way that you can’t assume that the person who identifies as asexual is aromantic, you can’t assume the inverse. It is totally possible for a person who is aromantic to experience sexual attraction on some level regardless of what the identifier they use there is. And oftentimes because romantic and sexual attraction are generally conflated with each other and confused with each other, people do think that just because you’re one, you’re the other and that’s not the case. I believe there was a study done that said only something like 18% of people who identify as aspec, identified both as aro and ace, so obviously, that’s not even the majority. Arospec identities are part of the aspec more broadly but we refer to it as the asexual umbrella not the A umbrella because aro identities are not discussed as much as asexuality more broadly. And so we wanted to dive into real quickly the why of that. Obviously, it’s not like we have done a study and are reading you the results. But just in our own experience, aromanticism tends to be harder to normalize cause while sex is taboo, romance isn’t. It’s so deeply ingrained in our society, there are certain expectations, you’ve got Valentine’s Day, you’ve got this and that, you’ve got the expectation of this and that, you’ve got the expectation to ask so and so to the school dance. It’s talked about very openly in a way that sex is often not. And people see aro identities as weirder or stranger or even more wrong than they might view asexuality which is obviously a problem. But it’s just the way people experience it because it’s hard for many people to grasp that some people may just experience the world in a profoundly different way than them. Another reason it’s not talked about as much is because it’s less interesting in media. If you think about films and TV and books and comics and that sort of thing, there’s pretty much always a romantic plot whether that’s a subplot or the main plot and people are like, oh aro identities are less interesting. We can’t have these will they, won’t they relationships blah blah blah, which is just untrue because people can have fulfilling and deep relationships with people regardless of whether they’re coded as romantic or not. It’s also I think talked about less just because fewer people identify this way. That doesn’t mean that it’s less common, just that fewer people choose the identifier. This is more of a personal opinion but I do think it’s worth noting that it’s possible that because it tends to be a little bit harder to draw the line between romantic and other types of sensual, platonic, aesthetic attraction that fewer people choose to label just because they don’t totally know where the line is and because romance is impressed upon us from when we’re very very young so it’s seen as the default which is why some people may not view arospec identities as an option. That’s just a small detour.

(40:00)

BOTH: TL;DR.

SARAH: TL;DR just because a person doesn’t mean they are also ace, but they can be, for example me.

KAYLA: Refer back to the split model of attraction for that. People can have two identities that don’t necessarily line up. The last misconception is that people who don’t fit other societal norms in other ways, perhaps they have had some past trauma in their lives, maybe had some abuse in their lives, maybe they are neurodivergent, maybe they have some sort of disability, another misconception is that people like that can’t be aromantic and that is just not true. People who are maybe autistic or maybe have depression or have trauma in their lives can identify as aromantic and it is not because of those other identities that they hold that they are aromantic. It is not because someone is autistic that they are aromantic. And not every autistic person obviously is aromantic. It is not because someone maybe had an abusive relationship in the past. That is not what is causing their aromanticism necessarily. We get questions a lot from people of, I had this in my past, or I also have this neurodivergent identity, am I allowed to still identify as aromantic? And the answer is yes. 

SARAH: You get to decide. 

KAYLA: No matter what else is going on in your life, if you feel that the aromantic label fits you and helps you, then you are allowed to take it. Even if it somehow is caused by past trauma. “Caused”—that doesn’t mean that it is not valid and that it is not part of who you are now. Sexuality is incredibly fluid. It is something that no one really understands how it works or why people are the way they are. So, there is no reason that you aren’t allowed to identify some way or that you should tell someone that they are not allowed to, even if it looks maybe from the outside that some part of their life “caused” their orientation. No, that’s no one’s business truly.

SARAH: People identify how they identify and that’s that. 

KAYLA: And it’s very fluid so.

SARAH: Fluid, complicated, no rules. 

KAYLA: Yes.

SARAH: Wonderful. Okay, those were some of the common misconceptions. Along those lines, we want to go into a couple things maybe not to say or ask a person who has told you they are aro. As we mentioned in our ace TED Talk, we can’t ban you from asking these questions but we do urge you to think critically and only ask certain questions if it makes sense with the context, if it makes sense with the relationship you have with this person. 

KAYLA: And just think about the impact of your words. You might be coming from a very loving place and a place of being worried about someone when you are saying things or asking things but just be aware that your intention might not come across that way.

SARAH: It might be perceived differently. So, I need to start out with, you have the whole “that’s so sad, you’re going to die alone,” which, there’s so many problems with this. One of which is the idea that aro people don’t have to die alone just because they’re aro. As I mentioned before you can still have fulfilling relationships. For me, I have friends that are in committed romantic relationships and have been for a long time, Kayla’s one of them. But those friends are people who don’t inherently value their romantic relationships over platonic ones just because they’re romantic. Those friends are people who are thoughtful about their relationships and each relationship has its value based on the relationship itself and the people involved in the relationship. And so, you know, I am not going to die alone because I have these strong bonds and relationships with other people. And those people might be in romantic relationships but that doesn’t mean that I’m always going to be a third wheel or something. There’s many layers and I can be friends with someone with whom another friend of mine is in a romantic relationship. It’s not always going to be like, oh that’s too bad you’re alone. It’s well-intentioned that you’re worried about their happiness but it’s severely misguided.

(45:00)

KAYLA: Right I still fully plan on growing old with Sarah though I am in a long-term romantic relationship. 

SARAH: She’s going to annoy me until one of us dies. 

KAYLA: It’s true, the idea that you need to grow old with a spouse and a bunch of children around you is just not true. There are so many other ways to build a strong community around you and have either consistently or different communities through your life that are going to be there at the end. There is no rule out there, there’s nothing set in stone that it has to be some romantic partner that you’re there with at your dying breath. You know?

SARAH: Yeah. Along those lines, another common thing that you hear is something about cats, dying alone with a bunch of cats.

KAYLA: Being a spinster.

SARAH: Being a spinster with cats. Honestly, I have the same rebuttal to this, but with the addition that cats are cool. What’s so bad about living with 12 cats?

KAYLA: Nothing, except that they’ll probably be messy. 

SARAH: So there’s that one. Another thing not to ask an aro person is, “don’t you feel like you’re missing out?” No. Next. But also, even if that person did feel like they were missing out, even if they’re at a point in accepting their identity where they still felt some sort of jealousy towards people who do experience romantic attraction, or you know, they still had that societally ingrained idea that you must have this romantic attraction. Even if those people do feel to some extent like they’re missing out, what is it helping to reinforce that?

KAYLA: What are they going to do about it?

SARAH: What is you being like, oh no don’t you feel like you’re missing out—how is that helping the situation?

KAYLA: Asking that implies that you’re missing out, like oh you’re missing out on the fun of being romantically attracted to someone or dating or whatever which we’ve gone over isn’t true, you can still date.

SARAH: Also dating sounds so not fun for a lot of reasons. It seems like such a process.

KAYLA: Anyway it makes it seem like it’s a choice that you can say, oh my god I am missing out, let me just pick up some of that romantic attraction, when like any other romantic attraction it’s just not a choice. So, there really isn’t any constructive reason to ask that or say something like that.

SARAH: And when you pose it like a question it’s not coming off as a question. The person you’re saying that to is hearing, “you’re missing out.” And that’s not productive. That’s not constructive, what are you getting with that? 

KAYLA: The opposite of that would be to tell someone, oh my god you’re so lucky you don’t have to deal with dating or you know, having your heart broken and things like that, which you know kind of like Sarah just says, Sarah seems rather happy not having to date and go through the stresses it can have and obviously I can say from someone who dates and has romantic attraction, it can be stressful and it can suck. I would equivocate this to telling a gay person they’re very lucky that they’re gay, maybe telling a lesbian they’re very lucky they don’t have to be attracted to men which we can joke about all day long because blah blah blah, men suck whatever—

(50:00)

SARAH: And we do, we do joke about it all day long.

KAYLA: But it’s important to remember the struggles that also come with being aromantic. It’s not like every stressful part of your life is just washed away and though aromantic people might not deal with the stress of having crushes on people or whatever, or having their heartbroken romantically speaking at least, there are still struggles that come with being aromantic like people not understanding you, people saying rude things to you, being left out of things. It’s a little tone-deaf I guess.

SARAH: And the pressure that’s on you to be involved in all this romance and romantic things is also on them. But it feels like even more on them because they don’t experience it. They’re slapped in the face constantly. Arospec people are constantly slapped in the face with the fact of they experience the world in a way that society deems to be wrong. And so, sure I might be lucky that I don’t have any attraction romantically and I don’t have any urge to date, but I also have every rom-com ever every movie ever, every TV show ever reminding me that I am not like the rest of you and that I’m missing out. So there’s always something on the other end of that seesaw.

KAYLA: I think this statement is one I would say to gauge where you are in your relationship with this person because it could be a joke like me saying, lesbians you’re so lucky you’re not having to deal with men, they suck haha. Because obviously there are a lot of things to be thankful for when you’re aromantic. We’ve talked about this in other episodes. There’s a lot of things to love about being aromantic and we’re not saying that aromantic people aren’t lucky in some ways. We’re just saying, if you’re going to say something like this, just be aware of the implications that you might be putting forth.

SARAH: Yeah. Next one is basically being like, oh are you aro because you are ugly and you just can’t get a date? Girl, you calling me ugly? What are you talking about? Aro and arospec people look all sorts of ways. How someone looks is not indicative of whether or not they experience a certain type of attraction full stop. And aro people can still put effort into what’s traditionally deemed as looking good. I still own makeup and I wear it when I want to and I still get annoyed when my face breaks out. Aro people can still want to look “beautiful” or “good.” I think that also implies that all people dress or tries to look a certain way just to attract a mate. And I think it’s so very wrong. Because it’s often levied at women, oh you’re just doing that to get a guy, blah blah blah and I definitely like to push back on that. I could get a date if I wanted to, I have had people ask me on dates. 

KAYLA: Big brag.

SARAH: Big brag! It’s just an absurd statement. The final thing that we have not to say or ask that we thought of is the idea that you’re just a sociopath or psychopath and you have no feelings at all. I have so many feelings. I sometimes have way too many feelings. I get very passionate, very excited about people. There are people in my life who I love very much. I do have feelings, sometimes to my own detriment.

(55:00)

KAYLA: This is just incredibly harmful, this sentiment. It’s trying to clinicalize someone’s identity, trying to medicalize it in some way, then put it in a context of something that is seen very negatively with psychopathy, relating it to a mental illness. There is a lot of harm that comes from that statement. 

SARAH: And also, I’m not an expert in this, I’m pretty sure that for sociopaths and psychopaths it is possible for them to experience feelings so that’s honestly kind of offensive to sociopaths and psychopaths. Just going to throw that out there. Alright, Kayla, before we wrap up, is there anything else you want to add about aromanticism?

KAYLA: Respect it. There are a lot of resources out there. I think the best resource is probably AUREA, aromanticism.org. They are a great website, they also have good social media presence, they have a great newsletter. It is the Aromantic-spectrum Union for Recognition, Education, and Advocacy. So they do a lot there, have a lot of blogs about more specific things, just you know, a lot more things to learn.

SARAH: Yeah and for me as a person who’s aro, it’s totally okay to have questions and it’s totally okay to want to know more but it is not okay to look at an aro person and then tell them that there’s something wrong with them and that they’re wrong for experiencing the world for the way they do. I appreciate your thoughtful questions and your thoughtful conversation but I am a human person and this is how I experience the world and please respect that. 

KAYLA: Like Sarah said, it’s okay if you don’t understand it at first, all we ask is at least some respect. 

SARAH: Yeah, that would be great, thanks. And listen to aro voices and what they are asking for —alright. With that said, I think we’ve reached the end of our official Ted talk. We have some more podcast but if you’re here just for the TED talk, thanks for joining us. You can find more information on our website, on AUREA’s website, a lot of places have a lot of wonderful aro resources and we encourage you to do your research, look up things, ask thoughtful questions and acknowledge that some people just experience the world differently than you and that is okay. And that is cool and fun.

KAYLA: Yes, and now, deep breath everyone. We made it. This is now the silly time at the end of the episode. And now we can take a deep breath and have silly time.

SARAH: This was less exhausting than the ace TED talk.

KAYLA: We are getting better at doing factual episodes. As is obvious, it is harder to do a podcast that is factual. It is easier to do one where you’re just talking to your friend.

SARAH: I didn’t think this was going to be fun. Not as horrible as the first time though, I don’t think we’re changing the order of anything.

KAYLA: No I think we’re getting better. Shocking that we would get better at this over three years but yeah.

SARAH: Great. Kayla, what’s our poll for this week?

KAYLA: I don’t know.

SARAH: Are you aro? You know I would like to know how many of our followers are arospec.

KAYLA: It won’t just be our followers. Someone will retweet it.

SARAH: Well—

KAYLA: Followers only.

SARAH: Followers only.

KAYLA: Maybe, how are you celebrating Aromantic Awareness Week? 

(1:00:00)

SARAH: Okay. Wonderful. So, for beef and juice, I had some very spicy political takes that I wrote a large note on my phone about that I’m not going to say here in part of just that it being a Ted talk episode and in part because I don’t want to get riled up again, so I deleted the note. And you know what, sometimes you have to rant in the Notes app and then delete it.

KAYLA: Just makes you feel better.

SARAH: You don’t need to post it anywhere, you know? Just let it out. So my beef is something, a constantly beef, is when people who are otherwise progressive say he or she when they is right there. It’s easier to say, like you’re trying to be inclusive but you’re being exclusive. 

KAYLA: it’s extra work for you.

SARAH: I don’t understand. It’s very annoying. And my juice is that I live with a cat now. 

KAYLA: Yes!

SARAH: It’s not my cat.

KAYLA: It’s not my cat either, Sarah didn’t move in with me. I still live in California. But my new roommate moved in and his name is Bogey and he’s a little delight. He is afraid of a lot of things but for some reason not afraid of me and he likes to bat his little balls under the couch in the oven where he can’t get them.

KAYLA: Yeah my cats also love that.

SARAH: That’s all that’s the Sarah update. I might be allergic to him, it’s unclear.

KAYLA: Worth it, it’s worth it. 

SARAH: So, Kayla what’s your beef and your juice this week?

KAYLA: My beef is that we had to say goodbye to my family dog this week.

SARAH: Baby. Little Miss Ginger.

KAYLA: I forget which episode it is, I think one of the early episodes where she was staying in our college house and you can hear her throughout the episode, so if you’re a long-time listener you might remember that.

SARAH: Our beginning of our Queery episode, it came up because Miss Ginger was walking around.

KAYLA: Yeah she had very long and loud toenails as that of an old woman. So, she had to be put down this week because her quality of life was not good anymore and it was not good to keep her alive to keep her alive so that was really sad.

SARAH: Very good girl.

KAYLA: She was a very good girl and I’m sure she’s much happier now. Now I’m crying.

SARAH: Don’t do that!

KAYLA: It’s too late. My juice. Dean and I have been making a lot of chili, it’s a staple meal that we’ve been doing. And this week we made a chili and I think we have finally perfected our recipe. 

SARAH: You made a chili. You made one singular chili.

KAYLA: Yeah. But every time we make it, it’s slightly different, but we made it this week and it was really good so we wrote down what we did so I feel like we’ve done it. We’ve cracked the chili code.

SARAH: Exciting. I don’t like chili but I’m happy for you.

KAYLA: Thank you.

SARAH: You can tell us about your beef, your juice, your aromanticism, what you’re doing for Aro Week which again is this week—

KAYLA: There are exciting things happening on my end for Aro Week. There are exciting things happening in my life and in my work life around Aro Week. I’m excited about it.

SARAH: Also I’m going to be on a livestream on Instagram @voicesforberlin on Saturday. We should have mentioned this at the top and we didn’t, and you know what for this episode I don’t want it to interrupt. Also, we announced our Queery episode in the Patreon, so you know what, nothing matters. Yeah, I’m going to be talking about aromanticism. Nicht stolz auf mein selbst, weil ich “proud” englisch zu deutsch googeln müsste, weil ich das wort nicht errinnert könnte. But I will be speaking English when I’ll be talking about aromanticism. But yeah that will be this Saturday at I think it’s 12pm Pacific. We’ll post about it. We also have our Patreon, patron.com/soundsfakepod. We have two new $2 patrons, Freja Olsen and Miles, thank you both.

KAYLA: Welcoooomeeee.

SARAH: Welcome. You’re lovely and wonderful. Our $5 patrons are Jennifer Smart, Asritha Vinnakota, Austin Le, Perry Fiero, Dee, Quinn Pollock, Emily Collins, Bookmarvel, Changeling MX, Simona Sajmon, Jamie Jack, Jessica Shea, Ria Faustino, Daniel Walker, Livvy, Madeline Askew, Lily, James, Corinne, AliceIsInSpace, Skye Simpson, Brooke Siegel, Ashley W, Savannah Cozart, Harry Haston-Dougan, SOUP, Amanda Kyker, Vishakh, Jacob Weber, Rory, Amberle Istar, Rachel, Kate Costello, John, Ariel Laxo, Ellie, Tessa, MattiousT, Chris Lauretano, Sam, Kelly, Scott Ainsli, Orla Nieve Eisley, and Julianne. Our $10 patrons are Arcnes who would like to promote the Trevor Project, Benjamin Ybarra who would like to promote me playing D&D, anonymous who would like to promote Halloween, Sarah McCoy who would like to promote Podcast From Planet Weird, my Aunt Jeannie who would like to promote Christopher’s Haven, Cassandra who would like to promote manifesting positivity, Doug Rice who would like to promote "Native" by Kaitlin Curtice, Maggie Capalbo who would like to promote their dogs Leia and Minnie, and also H. Valdis, who is our next patron. Purple Chickadee, who would like to promote figuring out one’s gender identity and the non-binary community, Barefoot Backpacker, who would like to promote the QuirkyAlone Movement, you did it again, Barefoot Backpacker you came up with something and I’m proud of you.

KAYLA: We’re so proud.

SARAH: The Steve who would like to promote Ecosia, Ari K. who would like to promote The The Eyeball Zone, I said it like scon like British people say scone, The Eyeball Zone, Mattie who would like to promote The Union Series by T.H. Hernandez, Derek and Carissa who would like to promote the overthrow of heteronormativity, Andrew Hillum who would like to promote Loveless and also Aro Week, just keeping it all in the box, Aaron who would like to promote free forehead kisses, and Khadir who would like to promote Gnocchi Feta Fettuccine as a wonderful name for any cat. And we have a new $10 patron, it’s Potater, we didn’t ask you what you wanted to promote and I am sorry. But do let us know, we’ll probably message you after this just to put it on the record in writing. But thank you for joining the party Potater, we love Potater. Our $15 patrons are Nathaniel White - NathanielJWhiteDesigns.com, my mom Julie who would like to promote Free Mom Hugs, Sara Jones who is @eternalloli everywhere, Andy A who would like to promote Being in unions and IWW, Martin Chiesel who would like to promote his podcast, Everyone’s Special and No One is, Leila, who would like to promote love is love applying to aro people, festive for this week, Shrubbery who would like to promote the Planet Earth, Dia Chappell who would like to promote their twitch.tv/MelodyDia, Sherronda J Brown, who didn’t have anything to promote so we’re promoting her and Dragonfly who is promoting rubber chickens. Okay. Thanks for listening, tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.

KAYLA: And until then, take good care of your—.

SARAH: Cows! This is supposed to say cows but her audio glitched. This is Sarah from the future. Cows, cows! Also, here’s a special edition SFBO rarity, an outtake for you. Thanks for playing.

KAYLA: Aromanticism is not—no.

SARAH: Aromanticism is not.

KAYLA: It’s not.