Sounds Fake But Okay
Sounds Fake But Okay
Ep 66: Parenting Queer Kids feat. Sarah's MOM
Hey what's up hello! You read that right! This week our special guest is Sarah's mom!! We talk to Julie about her experience as a mother of two queer kids - what was her reaction when her kids came out? Was her reaction different with Sarah? Does she regret anything? Does she have any advice for parents of queer kids?
Episode Transcript: www.soundsfakepod.com/transcripts/parenting-queer-kids-feat-sarahs-mom
Donate: patreon.com/soundsfakepod
Follow: @soundsfakepod
Join: https://discord.gg/W7VBHMt
Buy our book: www.soundsfakepod.com/book
(00:00)
SARAH:
Hey, what’s up hello! Welcome to Sounds Fake but Okay, a podcast where an aroace girl, I’m Sarah, that’s me.
KAYLA: And a demi-straight girl, that's me, Kayla.
JULIE: And Mom.
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don’t understand.
KAYLA: On today's episode: Mom!
BOTH: Sounds fake, but okay.
(intro music)
SARAH: Welcome back to the pod!
KAYLA: There's a mom here.
SARAH: There's a mom. It's my mom. Hi Mom!
JULIE: Hi!
SARAH: Would you like to tell the world how you think about yourself?
JULIE: I don't know. I'm just Mom.
SARAH: She's my mom. (laughs)
KAYLA: This is Sarah's mom, Julie.
SARAH: Yup.
KAYLA: Now, this is our second mom we've ever had on the podcast.
SARAH: Yup. First mom of one of us.
SARAH: My mom heard yesterday that Julie was going to be on the podcast and got very jealous because she isn't even allowed to listen to this podcast.
SARAH: I told Julie she could listen to it now.
KAYLA: Really? Well, I guess you don't talk about your sex life. (all laugh)
SARAH: Yeah. So. You know.
JULIE: Well, at one point I was told I couldn't listen to it, and then...
SARAH: But now you can.
JULIE: The other mom was on, and I'm like, "Hey, wait a minute."
KAYLA: Okay, see, we can't tell my mom that you're allowed to listen, though, because then she'll be real mad.
SARAH: Yeah. Well, I have a little preface that I wrote down. And the lil preface is: I used to not want my parents to know about the pod cuz it made me kind of uncomfortable. But eventually they just found out because other family members knew.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And then, like, you know, they found out. And I'm at the point where I feel comfortable having my mom on. Hi Mom!
JULIE: Hi!
SARAH: But yeah. Also, I'm in a position where I have a very accepting family and I haven't had people react badly. If you’re not in that kind of situation, you don't have to have your mom on your podcast. (all laugh)
KAYLA: Good preface, Sarah. That's probably... very niche.
SARAH: But also, like, listeners, if you're not ready to come out to your parents...
KAYLA: You can have Julie.
SARAH: Yeah. Julie can be your mom.
KAYLA: Julie is now everyone that listens to this podcasts’ mom. Congratulations. You have 30,000 children.
SARAH: Well, 30,000 listens.
KAYLA: You have, like, 400 children. (Sarah laughs)
JULIE: This is good. I love to mom people, so I'm good.
SARAH: Also, just a caveat for the listeners. If people in your life, especially your parents do find out about your sexuality, whether that's ace or something else, and are struggling a lil bit, I don't know, maybe we can help them with this episode a little bit. Or not. No pressure. It's fine.
KAYLA: Oh, my god. (Sarah laughs) What was that?
JULIE: No pressure. Thank you.
SARAH: No pressure. It's fine.
KAYLA: Here we are.
SARAH: Good introduction.
KAYLA: That was great.
SARAH: So, I guess for some context for some of you who haven't listened to every episode—which, I don't blame you, there's a lot—
KAYLA: Some people... okay, side note. We've gotten a lot of messages recently of people that discover the podcast and are listening from the beginning.
SARAH: Yeah, it's wild.
KAYLA: I'm sorry.
SARAH: I don't know why they would do that.
KAYLA: Why would you do that? Anyway.
SARAH: Anyway. So for those of you who don't know, my family... I have a sister and she identifies as gay.
KAYLA: She was on the podcast.
SARAH: She was on the podcast, yeah. And then I obviously identify as aroace. And so those are both of my mom's children.
KAYLA: She only has two.
SARAH: That's the experience that she has had. So I guess in terms of you coming to understand aceness, tell us: what was your first introduction to it?
JULIE: To aceness, or...
SARAH: Yup.
KAYLA: Well, so, like, when was the first time that you learned the word "asexual"?
JULIE: I don't know that I could pinpoint that. It's... I guess, are you talking about, like, your experience—
SARAH: Just in general.
JULIE: —or with Emily.
SARAH: Just, like, when did you learn... when did you first find out about the ace umbrella?
JULIE: The ace umbrella, probably when you kind of came out to me. I knew... like, our best friend is gay, we've had nieces and nephews that are gay...
KAYLA: Many of Sarah's cousins are gay.
SARAH: As we've mentioned before, my family is full of queer people.
JULIE: So in terms of that, you know, that I was familiar with. Or I’ve heard of people being bisexual and whatever. But in terms of the umbrella, getting into all of those subcategories, really when you came out was when I first became aware of all those categories. Which I still don't fully understand, but I'm trying.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: We don't even fully understand them.
SARAH: Yeah. Do we understand anything? No. We're just winging it on this podcast. I guess, like, when you were first introduced to it, which was when I kind of came out, but also kind of didn't... I guess, what was your reaction to it. Were you, like, confused—
(05:00)
JULIE: Yes. (Sarah and Kayla laugh) I was very confused. Just... not that I disagreed with anything; I just didn't understand it. It wasn't a part of anything that was part of my experience or that I'd known that I had contact with.
SARAH: Yeah. We were talking last night about how when I came out you were very supportive, you just didn't know what you were supportive of. (laughs) You were just like, "I support you in anything! What is this thing? Like, what's happening?"
KAYLA: Which isn't... I feel like that's a good attitude to have. Is, like, "I don't care what it is, I still support you, but also... uh, what?"
SARAH: "What is it?"
JULIE: "Help me understand, please?"
SARAH: Yeah. I guess, was it something that when you first learned about it, were you, like, surprised? Or were you just like, "Huh. Okay."
JULIE: Well, I was surprised that there were so many subcategories.
SARAH: Yeah.
JULIE: That was surprising. But when we were having our text conversations when you were in...
SARAH: I was in Germany.
JULIE: Yeah, it was (laughs) it was kind of an interesting way to find out, as we're having these side conversations, and Emily was pulled in on it...
SARAH: Emily's my sister.
JULIE: So then, just, you were trying to explain it to me. And, again, I'm supportive—it's who you are—but I just wanted to understand better who you are. And I remember you sharing some videos with me to go back and watch—and I don't remember who it was, but of people explaining exactly what they are.
SARAH: It was the Ash Hardell videos.
JULIE: Which were very helpful. And I needed to watch a couple times to really (laughs) fully get the idea. But it was one of those things that at first it was confusing because I didn't even know that was all out there. It was like opening up a whole new world to me. But then once I started finding out more about it, particularly aroace, then I was like, "Ohhh, that makes perfect sense for Sarah." Like, once I really understood what they were, it totally made sense for you. But it wasn't... it just took me a little bit to figure out what it meant. Hope that makes sense.
SARAH: Takes us all a lil bit to figure out what it means, let's be real. So I guess—I know you said there's still stuff that you don't understand—but is there, like, I guess... I don't know how to phrase this question at all! Like, as time has gone on, do you feel like you have started understanding it more, like, over time? Or is it just like, "This is what I have now, and I'm just gonna keep coasting on this knowledge." Does that make any sense?
JULIE: I think it does.
SARAH: Okay.
JULIE: And I stared focusing on aroace because that was the new thing that most directly impacted our world.
SARAH: Yeah.
JULIE: And so that—because that was you, I really wanted to get a better understanding of what that meant and who you were. But I feel as time has gone on I've started to understand other aspects as well. I haven't necessarily as actively tried to understand all of the...
SARAH: It's not directly relevant to your life.
JULIE: But it's still something that I need to know. So I feel like...
SARAH: You're informing yourself.
JULIE: Exactly.
SARAH: That's good. We support that.
KAYLA: Knowledge is good.
SARAH: Knowledge! Are there any things that you still just really can't get a grip on at this point? Or is it mostly just, like, little stuff that...
JULIE: A lot of times it's just the... if you look at some of the subcategories, some of the subtle differences between them confuse me.
SARAH: They confuse all of us. (laughs)
KAYLA: Mm, yeah. And it's not just you.
JULIE: (laughs) Well at least I'm not alone. But I don't know that there's anything... like any big ideas or concepts that I don't understand. But really the base of it is to be understanding that everybody is who they are, and it's not a choice—it's just who you are. And so you just accept and love everyone the way they are. And hopefully as time goes on, understand them a little bit better. That didn't make much sense, but...
SARAH: No, that made sense.
KAYLA: No, that made a lot of sense. (All laugh) I think that's how everyone should feel.
SARAH: Yeah. The next thing I have written is, like, generational differences. So I guess like, is... I know, like, with people in other generations in our family don't necessarily know about my aroaceness because it doesn't....
KAYLA: None of their business!
SARAH: I don't really have the urge to have that long, extended conversation with them. But I guess like, you have been very accepting from the start of all of these things.
KAYLA: Well, I think it's very easy to not be, especially for people not in our generation. Because, like...
SARAH: Our generation has a whole new view on it.
(10:00)
KAYLA: Well, I think, like, people in any generation above ours, there's an excuse to not accept people, cuz you're like, "Well, it's just how I grew up and it's how I was raised." So you have an easy out to be a bigot. (Sarah and Julie laugh)
SARAH: Are there any specific things that have, like, lead you to...
JULIE: I just try and be accepting of all people, no matter what it is. Whether it's their ethnic background, whether it's... how they identify, whether it's... whatever. I just try to be accepting of all people. So this is sort of, like, just one more, I hate to say "category," but just like one more...
SARAH: An extension of that.
JULIE: ...extension of that.
SARAH: And you're also a teacher, so you've dealt with a lot of different minority groups.
KAYLA: Wait, you're a teacher and you teach a lot of special needs kids, right? So I think it would make sense that, like, if you're going to be accepting of people who have a disability that a lot of people aren't as accepting of, of course you would be someone that accepts everybody.
JULIE: I try and look at not the superficial stuff. Not that I'm saying that it's superficial, but it's just...
KAYLA: Sarah, you're very superficial. (Julie laughs)
SARAH: Thank you! (laughs)
JULIE: It didn't come out sounding right, but looking at, I guess, looking a bit deeper and not... trying not to judge on some of the other things that sometimes people are really quick to judge on.
SARAH: Yeah. So as a parent of queer kids, plural, obviously—you're not "obviously"—but, like, I would anticipate that when you were born and we were just infant children, you weren't like, "Ah, yes—"
KAYLA: "That's a gay!"
SARAH: "—I bet that this is a queer child!" Like, "I anticipate that they will live this particular life!" Like, I guess, in the coming out process—or the lack of coming out process, in my case—how was your reaction to that, and how was that something that you took in as a parent?
JULIE: Okay. You're right, like, I don't have a baby and think, "Okay."
SARAH: "I bet they're gay!"
KAYLA: "That's a gay!"
JULIE: No. And you sort of envision the life your children are gonna have—and certainly they're gonna follow their own path—but when you were little, I envisioned if you married, it was going to be to a man.
SARAH: Me too!
JULIE: You know? Like, you have the stereotypical dreams for your child because you don't know any different. And then as Emily got older and I suspected before she came out to us that she was gay, and I actually planted some conversations ahead of time so that if she really was, it would hopefully make it easier for her, which came out when she came out—some of those planted conversations did come out in a conversation.
SARAH: Success.
KAYLA: Nice! Effective parenting!
JULIE: (laughing) I try.
SARAH: You were telling me yesterday the fact that we have a family friend who's gay helped you in terms of, like, Emily coming out, right?
JULIE: It—yeah. Cuz when he came out to us—cuz I've known him since ninth grade and he's one of our best friends, he was dad's roommate in college—when he came out we did not see it coming. And it took him a while to convince us that he was not joking around—because he jokes around all the time—anyway. So partway through him coming out and your dad still thinking he's joking and I'm elbowing him, like, "Uh, he's serious." So, going through that experience with him when I didn't see it coming, and then I did see it coming with Emily, but just going through that conversation with him really did help prepare me for responding to Emily. Because that's such a critical conversation and you don't... as the person they're coming out to, you don't know when it's going to happen, and you want to make sure that you respond positively so they don't misinterpret anything or read anything that's not really there. So going through that with him really helped me be in a better place to go through it with Emily.
SARAH: Also, cuz he was an adult when he came out to you. And I think it's a little bit different when you have, like, a kid or a teenager come out to you. Cuz it’s much more, like... your reaction is going to have a huge impact.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Especially if they're your parent.
KAYLA: Yeah. If it's your parent or anyone in your family, like, their reaction is everything.
SARAH: Yeah. And so you had like a little practice run. (laughs)
JULIE: It was! It was like a practice run. And it did help me a lot. And I don't think Emily was scarred for life when she came out. At least I hope not.
SARAH: I don't think so either. (all laugh) So that's good. But you said—you were saying that you didn't necessarily see it coming with me because you didn't understand what aceness was.
JULIE: Exactly.
SARAH: But in hindsight, it made sense?
JULIE: Exactly. Because... well, like you've said before, you can appear straight because you're just not dating anyone.
SARAH: Yeah. That's the "default."
(15:00)
JULIE: Right. And I'd often wondered why I'd never heard you talk about, oh, being interested in this boy or even this girl. I never heard you talk about being interested in anyone. But not knowing that the umbrella was out there...
SARAH: Me neither! (Sarah and Julie laugh)
KAYLA: What I think is funny is that... even if Sarah wasn't ace, would we really hear about it in detail? (Julie laughs) Like, I feel like if Sarah wasn't ace or wasn't aro, I don't think I would truly ever hear about her dating life, who she liked.
SARAH: It would just be like, "Oh, I'm getting married now." And you'd be like, "What?"
KAYLA: I truly think that's how it would go. It would be like, "Uh, so I have a boyfriend" or "I have a girlfriend," and I'd be like, "Uh—mmm. What?"
JULIE: "And we've been dating for six months." (all laugh)
KAYLA: That is true. It would happen.
JULIE: That's a good point, Kayla. I could totally see that.
SARAH: "Oops."
KAYLA: Whaddya gonna do.
JULIE: But anyway. So I had thought about that—like, most kids you hear about crushes or this or that, and I never heard that from Sarah. But not knowing that the ace umbrella was out there, I never associated it with that. Like, had I known it was there, I would have thought earlier that you might fall under the umbrella. I just didn't even know it existed.
SARAH: Look at all this terminology you use. Look at you go!
JULIE: Aren't you proud!
KAYLA: Well, cuz I know Emily—before you came out—suspected you were ace. And that's because she knew what ace was. So I feel like... yeah, you probably definitely would have seen it coming if you had known what it was, because Emily had noticed it.
JULIE: Yeah. But then once I understood what it was, everything just clicked. I'm like, "Oh, yeah. That's so Sarah. That makes sense."
SARAH: I'm making weird faces. I know you can't see it. (Julie laughs)
KAYLA: Really uncomfortable, lady.
SARAH: (laughs) We love it. So I guess when you found out about our sexualities, did it change your view of us at all?
JULIE: It didn't change my view of you because at the end of the day—and I want to make sure I say this carefully cuz I don't want it to be misunderstood—how you identify or how Emily identifies, I don't want to say it doesn't matter to me because it's an important part of who you are, but it in no way impacts my relationship with you. Does that make sense?
SARAH: Mmhmm. Kayla just made a weird... (Julie laughs)
KAYLA: You look weird. (Julie and Sarah laugh)
JULIE: So yes it's an important aspect of who you are, but I'm gonna love you the same no matter what. It doesn't impact how much I love you or how I'm going to treat you. The one thing that was a little difficult for me to adjust to—and this is my issue, not either of your issues—is because you'd grown up and I had these dreams, as you just imagine your child growing up and this is what their life's gonna look like, and all of a sudden it looked drastically different. You know? So instead of... Emily potentially marrying some man, well, if she gets married she's gonna marry a woman. And odds are you're never gonna get married at all.
SARAH: Yup.
JULIE: Which could happen anyway. But...
SARAH: Right.
JULIE: But my dreams and my visions had to be adjusted.
SARAH: It's like High School Musical. "Dad, that's your dream! Not mine!"
KAYLA: I think that's really common, though.
SARAH: It's very common.
KAYLA: When people come out to their parents, I feel like the most common thing you hear is, like, "I'm never gonna have grandchildren!" Like, that's something I hear all the time when people come out. And it's because, you know, when you do have a kid you expect, like, oh, this is what my kid's life is gonna be like, it's probably gonna look like mine, cuz why wouldn't it.
SARAH: Right.
JULIE: Right. And now all of a sudden thas's completely reversed or undone or whatever. And it took a while to kind of retrain my thinking, if that makes sense. But all along I knew that's my issue—it's not your issue or Emily's issue—that's my issue to deal with and come to terms with. Which I have, and it's not like it's a negative thing. It's just sort of...
SARAH: It's just a life change. It's just reframing how you think about things.
JULIE: Exactly.
KAYLA: I don't think that there's anything wrong or that's bad, either, though. It's like, you've had Sarah for 21 years. Of course when she was a baby you thought certain things about her and you thought her life was gonna go a certain way because you've known her since she was an infant. So I think that's a really natural process to have to go through.
SARAH: Yeah. And I made a note also about kids with, like... I think this is applicable to any parent, because any parent, their kid may choose to have or not have kids, or may choose to have or not have biological children, like biologically related to them. But I think it's especially a big deal for parents of queer kids because it's more common, I think, in that situation. Was the fact that I don't want kids—was that something that you had to come to terms with? Like, I think you kinda touched on this, but like was it something that was like... I don't know where I'm going with this. This isn't a very good question. (laughs)
(20:00)
JULIE: No, I get what you're saying. Because that's something else that just is, again, reframing what you're thinking. So this is just reframing that if you don't want children, you're not going to have children. So my having to go through the process of reframing how thinking that, okay, if I have grandchildren, they're probably all going to be coming from Emily and not from you. So yeah, that's another thing, too. But that's just... I mean, that's just a part of who you are.
SARAH: And even if I weren't aroace, I still don't think I would want kids.
JULIE: Exactly.
SARAH: So... sorry. (laughs)
JULIE: And if there's a little part of me that holds out hope that you might change your mind someday...
SARAH: I'm gonna have dogs, Mom! (Julie laughs)
KAYLA: You'll have dog kids.
JULIE: But that's okay! It's your life. You have to live it the way you need to live it.
KAYLA: You can have my kids, Julie.
JULIE: Can I? (Sarah laughs)
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Just hand them off to her.
KAYLA: "Here! Have this infant!" (Julie laughs)
SARAH: Also, just, like, a thing... woah. The concept that if your children do have kids, they may not be biologically related to you. I know for some people that can be really difficult. But also, I saw a thing on the internet recently about how when you're thinking about adoption, a lot of times adoption is seen as a last resort, where you only adopt if you can't have biological children. And that's not how we should think about it.
KAYLA: Nah.
SARAH: But, like, I know for some parents that's a really difficult thing to realize. Like, "Okay, maybe I won't have grandkids that are biologically related to me," but, like, whatever. (laughs)
KAYLA: I was... I keep thinking—I've been binging Brooklyn 99 and there was an episode where Charles's ex-wife was holding his sperm hostage, and it was his last sperm because now he's sterile. And he was like, "Well, what if I don't have a kid that's my kid?" And then Jake was like, "Whatever. That doesn't make you a dad."
SARAH: It's like my beef with Age of Ultron. With Natasha—with Black Widow. How she's like, "I can't have children." And it's like, yeah you can! Your ability to... (Sarah and Kayla make frustrated noises) That's the tea.
KAYLA: Anyway.
JULIE: I feel like we've gone off on a little tangent here.
SARAH: That is what this podcast is.
KAYLA: That is all we do.
SARAH: Yeah, we do. This podcast is full of tangents.
JULIE: Could I redirect back to what I think the original question was?
SARAH: Sure.
KAYLA: If you must.
JULIE: (laughs) Does it matter to me if I have biological grandchildren?
SARAH: I guess? Kinda?
JULIE: Is that kind of what you were getting at?
SARAH: Or, like, was that something that you had to kind of like overcome? Or I don't know. Question mark?
KAYLA: (Applauds) That interviewer of the year. (Sarah and Julie laugh)
JULIE: I mean, that's probably something I'm still kind of adjusting to. But I just love children, so whether they're...
SARAH: She works with children.
KAYLA: You can have a baby.
JULIE: Whether they're biologically related to me or if they're adopted or however... It’s like I told Emily this, there's so many ways to create a family. And so...
SARAH: Dogs, for example. (Julie laughs)
JULIE: So, you know, if there are grandchildren in my future, however that happens...
SARAH: Dogs.
JULIE: I will just love them the same.
SARAH: What about cats? You're allergic to cats.
JULIE: I'm allergic to cats. (Sarah laughs)
KAYLA: I want a cat so bad. My mom is also allergic to cats. Too bad for her, I'm getting one. (Julie laughs)
SARAH: Dogs and cats. Take some allergy medicine. (Julie laughs) Cool. Knowing what you now know about me and my sister, is there anything that you would have done differently or anything you would've changed in hindsight about, I don't know, how you raised us, how you reacted to things? Or would you just be like, "Eh, it's chill."
JULIE: I would've responded very differently when Katy Perry's "I Kissed A Girl" song came out.
SARAH: Oh. Okay!
KAYLA: What was your reaction? Did you hate it?
JULIE: I...
SARAH: That's really specific.
KAYLA: Cuz there are reasons to hate that song, but I don't think yours are the reasons I don't like that song.
SARAH: Why don't you like that song?
KAYLA: Cuz it's fetishizing... Sarah.
SARAH: Oh, that's true. That's true. (Kayla laughs) Do tell.
KAYLA: It's just... she's not actually gay. She's just fetishizing lesbianism, which already happens. And she's just handing it to the male gaze.
SARAH: That is true.
KAYLA: Anyway.
SARAH: And that's the tea.
KAYLA: For another time.
JULIE: Um... now I lost my train of thought. (laughs)
SARAH: You would've reacted differently.
KAYLA: Katy Perry.
JULIE: Because when it first came out, I think I said something about you guys not listening to the song or whatever. It was a time when Emily was really coming to terms with...
SARAH: Turbulent.
JULIE: Right. And so it had a...
SARAH: (laughing) Kayla's shaking her head.
KAYLA: I didn't like that word.
(25:00)
JULIE: So I think it ended up having a negative impact on Emily as she was trying to figure out who she was. So at the time I wasn't as open-minded as I should have been. I should've been just like, "Fine, just listen to it. Whatever, it's not a big deal." So I think I would've... like, I felt like I was open about some things when you were younger, but I guess I wish I'd been a little bit more open about things.
SARAH: Also, just, like, with the times, it's... there are things that the general society didn't know or didn't talk about in the early 2000s. And we can't blame you for not having known them. Because it wasn't...
KAYLA: Well, it just wasn't... there wasn't access to that knowledge. I was just talking to my mom yesterday, and she was asking me, she was like, "So what sexualities are there?" And she just wanted me to just list sexualities. So I gave her a few. (Julie laughs) But I was like, "What's happening?" And then truly I forgot every sexuality I've ever known—basically just left my mind. But she was like, "So how did you, like, learn about these things? Like, where do you find this?" And I was like, "The internet." And she was like, "Did you look it up?" And I was like, "No. I just... it was just on the internet."
SARAH: Social internet.
KAYLA: But, like... yeah. I think she probably was curious of, like, "I don't know these things. How come I don't know this?" Cuz it's not on TV.
SARAH: That is true. It's increasingly on TV, but it's very... some ways to go.
JULIE: Well, to be fair, if I didn't have the children that I have, I probably wouldn't know.
SARAH: That is true.
KAYLA: Yeah, to be fair, it's not very relevant to my parents. There's no reason for them to know, other than, just, like...
SARAH: Other than to be informed.
KAYLA: Being... yeah. Being an informed person.
SARAH: Yeah.
JULIE: And, like, when I grew up, it's like you were straight or you were gay. And eventually there was kind of, like bi, or some other things. But, like, there weren't all these sub-categories or whatever. So we tended to think that you were straight or you were gay.
SARAH: Well, even the ace community as a community is very young. It's the... the idea of not being attracted to other people is a tale as old as time. However—Kayla hates that I said that—however, like, the identity and the community is very new.
JULIE: Well, and then I... so, now that I know more, I look back at family members that have passed away that I'm like, "Hmm. I wonder if it's a generational..."
SARAH: My grandma.
KAYLA: That gay bitch. (laughs)
JULIE: Huh?
SARAH: What?
JULIE: What?
SARAH: My grandma. Several, several family members have been like, "Was grandma bi?"
KAYLA: Probably. (Julie laughs) There's no—okay, just looking at your family's track record (Sarah laughs) of how many gays there are, she has to be. Like, there's no way she isn't.
JULIE: That's not who I was thinking of.
SARAH: You never know.
KAYLA: The other thing about, like, old maids in stories and whatever: gay.
SARAH: Gay? Ace? Who knows.
KAYLA: Not straight, that's for damn sure.
SARAH: (laughs) Yes. Anyway. Uh... is that the only thing you would change? Your reaction to "I Kissed A Girl" by Katy Perry?
JULIE: Wait wait wait...
KAYLA: That's so specific. I love it.
SARAH: It's really specific.
JULIE: I know. That was, like, way too specific.
KAYLA: You know, that's such a parent thing, though. Sometimes my parents will bring up very specific things that they're like, "Oh, no."
SARAH: And I'm like, "I don't remember this."
KAYLA: What's funny is I also have some very specific memories of my childhood that scarred me for life that my parents don't remember at all!
SARAH: Retweet!
JULIE: Well, it's like you do your best to be a good parent and you try and be open and accepting and understanding, and then we're human.
KAYLA: Well yeah. There's always... like, the one thing... and it wasn't even a screw-up—truly it scarred me for life—is I took the last blueberry from the bowl and I didn't ask my sister first if she wanted it, and then my dad gave my sister a whole bowl to herself. (Sarah laughs) And so now I always have to ask people if they want the last thing, because I'm scarred for life and my dad doesn't even remember!
JULIE: At least you're not bitter.
KAYLA: No. Never. (all laugh) Bitter? Don't know her.
SARAH: Iconic. So that's the only thing you would've changed, is your reaction to that song? (laughs)
JULIE: No, there are other things. I guess, at that point... I mean, cuz I felt like—I hope—that you've always known that we're supportive with our family members or friends that are gay or...
SARAH: I remember when my cousin first came out, you, like, pulled us into the den and you were like, "Do you see this Facebook post?" And we were like, "Yes." And you were like, "You know this is okay, right?" And we were like, "Yeah."
KAYLA: That's so cute.
SARAH: And you were like, "Cool."
KAYLA: "Cool. See you later!" (Sarah and Julie laugh)
JULIE: Well, that's one of those things that... I mean, it's your cousin, and you hear so many things from school and at that point in your life you're getting input from so many other aspects other than us, and I just wanted to check in and make sure that...
(30:00)
KAYLA:
You weren't raising a homophobe. (Sarah and Julie laugh)
JULIE: Clearly I did not!
SARAH: And he just got married!
KAYLA: That's exciting.
SARAH: It is exciting.
JULIE: Now, he's one that we knew from the...
KAYLA: From the past!
SARAH: From a young age!
KAYLA: You can tell.
SARAH: But some other family members were complete surprises. So.
KAYLA: The baby gays.
SARAH: The baby gays. I thought you meant the gaze of a child. Like the eyesight. G-A-Z-E.
KAYLA: Okay, this is a conversation we've had before, isn't it. "Gaze" and "gays"? It sometimes... this was a thing our freshman year. I would ask someone which word am I saying, "gaze" or "gays"? And I would see if they could tell. And often they could. Anyway.
SARAH: The male gays!
KAYLA: I hate it.
SARAH: (laughs) Anyway. Cool.
JULIE: I don't know if I finished answering the question, though.
SARAH: Yeah, we keep interrupting you.
KAYLA: Sorry. I haven't seen Sarah in days.
SARAH: In days.
JULIE: I think part of it is like... we always tried to be open that—and this is gonna sound really bad—but just supportive of friends and family that were gay, because at that point that's all I knew.
SARAH: Without the expectation that we were necessarily going to be.
JULIE: Right. But I had it shifted in my mind that you guys might be. So I think I might've started framing things differently when you were at a younger age, because it just at that point never occurred to me that you guys might be. If I thought it through, I would’ve…
SARAH: Just would've thought about it differently.
JULIE: Yeah. And started framing things differently when you were younger than you were. I hope that made sense.
SARAH: Yeah, that makes sense. So I recently caught up on the TV show One Day at a Time on Netflix. Great show.
KAYLA: Thanks for the rec.
SARAH: You're welcome. I met the showrunner, it's fine. (laughs) And basically the spoiler is that the daughter comes out as gay, and the mom is like, "Oh yeah, I'm okay with this." But then she realizes that, like, maybe she's not. But she has a friend who's gay, and so she goes to that friend and she’s like, "Help me. Because I'm okay with you being gay, but with my daughter it's different. Help me." And so she just has to come to terms with the fact that, like, it's not just a friend. This is her daughter, and it's going to impact her life. But, like, sometimes you just gotta do that, you know?
JULIE: Well, there's a lot of truth in that, because you frame it differently. It's one thing if it's our best friend, it's another thing if it's my child. Not that I have any issues with it—I just have to take the time to reframe it in my mind. Again, like I said earlier, that's my issue. It's not yours or your sister's. But it feels very different when it's your good friend versus your child.
SARAH: Changing worldview.
KAYLA: Were you in any way, like, afraid for... like, especially Emily, cuz Sarah is very straight-passing.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Were you in any way afraid for Emily or, like, worried for her?
JULIE: Yeah. That was one of my... when she actually officially came out to us, so it kind of confirmed my suspicions, that was one of my biggest concerns—was not that she was gay, but just knowing what was ahead for her, and encountering people that were going to not treat her well because of it, and the heartache and the problems... like, my heart broke for her knowing that that was in her future. But she is who she is, and there's nothing I can do about it other than being there for her when it happens.
SARAH: And it's like, we're in the upper Midwest, which is... it's not the Bible Belt, but it's also not San Francisco.
KAYLA: It's like the Bible... cardigan, maybe? (Sarah and Julie laugh)
SARAH: What? I hate that. Get out of my house!
KAYLA: You can say weird things and so can I! I was offered a bowl of ham in this home and I can say Bible cardigan if I want!
SARAH: Anyway. But yeah. Depending on where you are in our general place of upbringing, there are more liberal places and less liberal places. I can see that.
JULIE: Well, and I did surprise myself this year by finding out that apparently I'm a liberal, and I didn't know it.
SARAH: Yeah, you are.
KAYLA: You didn't know? How did you not know?
JULIE: I always thought I was conservative, but apparently I'm not.
KAYLA: Well no, you're not!
SARAH: You were raised in a conservative household.
KAYLA: You are not at all! I could've told you that.
JULIE: (laughing) I should've asked you a long time ago.
KAYLA: I knew.
SARAH: Amazing. I guess, the last thing I have to say—the last question I have—is, like, for other parents of kids who are queer or who they suspect might be queer or who have come out, do you have any advice for them for handling this onslaught of new information?
JULIE: Oh, that's just a loaded question.
SARAH: It sure is! You're welcome.
JULIE: Okay.
SARAH: And answer in whatever way you do or don't please.
(35:00)
JULIE: It's... well, it's interesting to me because I had two very different experiences with each of you coming out.
SARAH: Yeah. Well, it's gonna be different with every kid. Which is a thing for parents to know.
JULIE: Right. And one thing, with Emily I saw it coming. With you I did not. And I will be... although with you I wasn't face-to-face.
SARAH: That is true! Sarah method.
KAYLA: So stupid.
JULIE: But I remember with Emily, like, consciously thought… and both of you, just tone of voice, telling myself to make sure cuz my facial expressions give everything away, just, in my mind, like, "Watch your face, watch your face, watch how you're saying things," because I didn't want either one of you to read in anything negative just because... I don't want to say in shock, but I wasn't prepared.
SARAH: Yeah. You didn't come in with notecards.
JULIE: Right. So I wanted to make sure that I didn't show any body language or say anything that could be misconstrued as negative. So going through that. Like with Emily I knew or I really highly suspected ahead of time, so I did intentionally plant conversations about, you know, I forget exactly how I said it, but you know, "I don't care if you fall in love with a guy, a woman," I think I said, "a purple dinosaur"...
SARAH: A purple dinosaur! (Kayla laughs)
JULIE: Just kind of as a joke because she was much younger at the time. But, "As long as you find someone that you love, if that's what you want"...
SARAH: And who treats ya well!
JULIE: Who treats you well, you know, it doesn't matter. So I think it helped, planting that conversation with Emily. No idea with you.
SARAH: Me either.
JULIE: (laughing) So I wasn't able to plant any conversations. But at the end of the day, you are who you are, and it's not as if you choose to be aroace or choose to be gay, it's just part of who you are. So, you know. I love you no matter what because you're my child and I love you.
SARAH: Gross.
KAYLA: Gross.
JULIE: That's the way it goes. And I want to be supportive of you. And just recognizing that a lot of what I went through is me adjusting my thinking and my dreams to match what your lives were like. And that's my issue, not your issue.
SARAH: You kind of already answered this, but to any parents of queer kids who may not be super accepting as a knee-jerk reaction or may not be thinking that way, of "I need to think about how I'm reacting to this physically," like, what advice would you have to them for coming to terms with who their kid is? Do you have any?
JULIE: (laughs) Another loaded question. You're good at these.
SARAH: I'm full of loaded questions today, folks!
JULIE: To just... you know, hopefully they'll get to the point where they realize that they just may be reacting emotionally when their child comes out. And your child is still the same before the conversation as after the conversation. You just know more information. And if it's something that you don't necessarily understand, then you need to find out more about it. If it's something that you don't necessarily agree with, you need to be rethinking what your values are. Because your child's the priority. So you may need to do a lot of work on yourself to kind of readjust your thinking so that you're able to be supportive. But it's a lot of work you need to do on yourself. It's not anything that your child needs to change for you. You need to adapt to support your child. And at the end of the day, they're your child and you love them, and they are who they are. So, you just have to…
KAYLA: Get over it.
SARAH: Retweet! Model parent! (quietly) I slammed my fist on the table.
KAYLA: (quietly) Thank you.
SARAH: It was dramatic.
JULIE: But there is a lot of work that I had to do on myself, because I had to rethink and learn how to adjust myself.
SARAH: I think a big thing is just your kid is the same kid.
JULIE: Exactly.
SARAH: It's like, American history is the same, regardless of whether you know it or not. Same thing... you know. "Victors are telling the history" or whatever, but regardless of what you know, it happened.
KAYLA: There is an objective truth.
SARAH: Something happened, right? And so, like, the same is true of any person.
KAYLA: Your kid has been gay before you even knew. And you still liked them then. The only thing that's different is now you know they're gay.
SARAH: Yeah. And (singsong voice) it's not a choice. I didn't choose to be white, but I am.
KAYLA: Congrats. Honestly.
SARAH: Didn't choose to be ace, but I am. It's all the same.
JULIE: Yeah. But, like, all of those aspects of you make up who you are. And I love you for who you are. So...
(40:00)
SARAH: Super pale.
JULIE: You're welcome.
SARAH: Paler than you are!
JULIE: I used to think I was pale, but...
KAYLA: And then you saw your child.
SARAH: And then you had a child.
JULIE: So, I don't know if I answered your question.
KAYLA: I think you did.
SARAH: Eh, I think you did. Go team! Is there anything else you want to add, about anything?
JULIE: Anything I want to add about anything?
SARAH: Earlier you were saying that you didn't like listening to your voice because you're kind of sick, so I'll give them that caveat.
JULIE: Thank you.
KAYLA: Mama's sick. But we were sick a couple weeks ago and you had to hear us sniffling, so you're fine.
SARAH: It's fine. I'm still sniffly. (sniffs)
KAYLA: Same. (Sarah laughs)
JULIE: I mean, just at the end of the day, they're the same child before they come out or after they come out, and it's all just part of who they are. And you just need to love them and support them and adjust your thinking and not feel like there's something that they need to change for you. It's you need to change for them.
KAYLA: Do you have anything you would say... because I think most of our... I don't know that we have... what if we have parents that listen to this?
SARAH: I mean, I know we have adult listeners.
JULIE: Aren't you adults? (laughs)
SARAH: No, real adults.
KAYLA: No, no we are not. (Sarah laughs) There's someone that has a... is there someone that has a PhD that listens to us?
SARAH: I don't know, but like, why?
KAYLA: For some reason I feel like we do. Do you have anything you would say to any kids listening, or young adults, teens, whatever.
SARAH: Humans.
KAYLA: Small humans. That are listening that maybe don't have very supportive parents. Do you have anything that you would say to your pseudo-children, all 400 of them?
JULIE: Find someone that they can trust, and try and get a relationship with someone they can trust, because unfortunately there are parents out there that aren't supportive. But it's the parent's issue; it's not the children's issue.
SARAH: It's not your fault that your parent's reacting that way.
JULIE: Right. Everyone has value, everyone's important, everyone is loved. So if they're not getting that from their parents...
SARAH: Kayla's just crying.
KAYLA: It's so nice.
JULIE: Keep looking until they find someone that can meet that need and help them through it, because there are people out there who will, and everyone deserves that.
KAYLA: Oh. That's so nice.
SARAH: Lit.
KAYLA: Sarah, you didn't have to ruin it.
SARAH: Yes I do. Um, what is our poll this week? I have no idea.
KAYLA: Is Julie your new mom?
SARAH: Is Julie your new mom? “Yes” or “no”?
KAYLA: “Yes” and “also yes”!
SARAH: The third option is just for me: "She was already my mom." "Yes," "no," "I'm Sarah. Or Emily." "I'm her actual child."
JULIE: Kayla doesn't count?
SARAH: It's up to Kayla.
KAYLA: Julie has been my mom for like, three years. "Yes," "no," "pre-existing mom."
SARAH: Pre-existing condition. Julie is my mother out of a pre-existing condition. Okay, cool. Kayla, what's your beef of the week? The problem is that we just did two episodes back-to-back.
KAYLA: I just came up with one!
SARAH: And so now we don't have any beef! Mom, what's your beef of the week?
JULIE: I just thought of one.
SARAH: Oh, hit me with it!
KAYLA: Prepared lady.
JULIE: My beef—I'm not prepared, it just occurred to me. (Sarah laughs)
KAYLA: More prepared than me.
JULIE: My beef of the week is parents who are not supportive of their children.
SARAH: (Applauds) And that's the tea.
KAYLA: That is the tea!
SARAH: My beef of the week is when it doesn't snow on Christmas.
KAYLA: I was just gonna say that, but I have a better one.
SARAH: It snowed a little bit. It didn't do anything. It didn't stay.
KAYLA: My beef of the week is that the economy just crashed so bad and I need a job! It is the worst crash we've had since 1918 or something?
SARAH: What?
KAYLA: The stock market crashed.
SARAH: Oh, right. Except for one.
KAYLA: So. Bad.
SARAH: Only one didn't crash.
KAYLA: What, like Amazon?
SARAH: Yeah, I think so.
KAYLA: Great. Uh, anyways, so the stocks just crashed so hard.
SARAH: DOW is in the ground.
KAYLA: I need a job! So that's really not good! Anyway, that's my beef of the week.
SARAH: We have a multitude of beeves this week. "Beeves" is the plural of "beef." I learned that from Katie.
KAYLA: How do you spell it?
JULIE: Really?
SARAH: B-E-E-V-E-S. Katie got really mad at it.
KAYLA: I think it should be B-E-A-V-E-S.
SARAH: That would be like a beaver.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Okay.
KAYLA: Alright!
SARAH: Good improvisational. Yes, and!
KAYLA: Yes, and!
SARAH: Mom, do you have anything you would like to promote?
KAYLA: (laughs) Anything you're workin' on, anything you wanna shout out, Julie?
JULIE: You know, I think I'm good!
SARAH: Can we promote our dog? Sadie is cute, and she didn't even bark during this.
KAYLA: She didn't. She's sleeping like a dummy. (Sarah laughs) I posted a picture of her on Twitter; this will be a week or so ago.
(45:00)
SARAH: This will be, like, two weeks ago.
KAYLA: Yeah. Uh, but also there's a picture of her somewhere with a ace pride flag.
SARAH: Yeah, she's very cute. So. That's all.
KAYLA: That's a good one.
SARAH: Cool. You can find our poll/find our beeves/find our Sadie on our Twitter, @soundsfakepod. We also have a gmail, soundsfakepod@gmail.com, and a Tumblr, soundsfakepod.tumblr.com.
KAYLA: Sadie was pretty popular on Tumblr for a while.
SARAH: She really was.
KAYLA: We stan.
JULIE: Why was I unaware of this?
SARAH: She's just a popular lady. Like, what can we say? (Julie laughs) She's cute.
KAYLA: I’m sorry that your dog is famous.
SARAH: That face speaks for itself.
KAYLA: Look at her. A big dummy.
SARAH: We also have a Patreon if you want to give us your money dollars, patreon.com/soundsfakepod. Our $2 patrons are Sara Jones and Keith McBlaine in the membrane. Sorry, Keith. I just do that every week.
KAYLA: I'm not. You're welcome!
SARAH: Roxanne—and Roxanne.
KAYLA: Woohoo.
SARAH: And our $5 patrons are Jennifer Smart, Asritha Vinnakota, Austin Le, Drew Finney, and Piero Fiero.
KAYLA: Piano Fiano.
SARAH: Piano Fiano! Peri Fiero. Thanks for listening, thank you for joining us, Mother. Any parting thoughts? You kind of already gave some.
JULIE: I—yeah.
SARAH: Cool. (Julie laughs) Thanks for listening. Tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.
KAYLA: Until then, take good care of your cows.
