Sounds Fake But Okay
Sounds Fake But Okay
Ep 306: The "Medium Ugly" Phenomenon
Hey what's up hello! This week we talk about the influx of discussions around "medium ugly" men, the related category of "hot rodent" men, and how both of those groups are just... normal-looking people.
Content Notice: Eating disorders
Episode Transcript: www.soundsfakepod.com/transcripts/the-medium-ugly-phenomenon
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[00:00:00]
SARAH: Hey what's up, hello! Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl, I'm Sarah, that's me.
KAYLA: And a bi demisexual girl, that's me, Kayla.
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don't understand.
KAYLA: On today's episode, Medium Ugliness.
BOTH: Sounds Fake But Okay.
SARAH: Welcome back to the pod!
KAYLA: Hello, happy pride!
SARAH: We're alive, are you? It's pride o'clock, are you feeling proud?
KAYLA: It's okay if you're not.
SARAH: Sound off in the comments!
KAYLA: In the comments. It was also aro visibility day this past week.
SARAH: It's as we're recording it.
KAYLA: Today for us.
SARAH: Today, so I just…
KAYLA: Are you feeling quite visible?
SARAH: Yeah, are you perceiving me?
KAYLA: Yeah, extra.
SARAH: Okay.
KAYLA: You're like in 5D.
SARAH: Thank you.
KAYLA: I can smell you.
SARAH: I don't like that.
KAYLA: There's spit coming from the back of my chair.
SARAH: What? No, no
KAYLA: Like when you go to Shrek 4D, you know?
SARAH: No. I don't know.
KAYLA: And the swamp comes at you
SARAH: It's not my spit!
KAYLA: It probably is, you're very spitty. You have a wet mouth, and we all know it.
SARAH: But it's not spitty. My mouth is too wet, but it's not spitty.
KAYLA: I know, but to get the 4D effect, you know, some things have to be exaggerated.
SARAH: You said it was 5D.
KAYLA: It is. The 5D is my dick.
SARAH: Happy Pride!
KAYLA: Happy Pride! I'm sleepy, and I have a pre-headache. I can feel it coming for me.
SARAH: All right, well, let's housekeep. If you haven't donated to Alaa's fundraiser yet, do it.
KAYLA: What the fuck is wrong with you? Just kidding.
SARAH: I've been just keeping an eye on it, and it has kind of slowed down. It has kind of stalled out the past couple days.
KAYLA: Oh, oh. Get back on it. Get in there, people.
SARAH: Let's keep on moving and grooving. Other than that, do we have anything else? We're going to have summer break. We haven't talked about it, but it will be in a couple weeks
KAYLA: But it will happen
SARAH: So, just emotionally prepare yourself for that.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I think that's it.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: Okay. Kayla, what are we talking about this week?
KAYLA: This week, we're talking about medium ugliness. I think, in particular, the medium ugly man, but I suppose we can throw other people in there, too.
SARAH: Oh, I think there's a discussion to be had there about the gender differences in medium ugliness, but we'll get to that.
KAYLA: We can get there.
SARAH: When Kayla first said medium ugliness, I was like, dude, you're talking about mid. Talking about people who are mid.
KAYLA: Okay, Sarah tried to accuse me of being the boomer
SARAH: And you are a boomer
KAYLA: When, in fact, she was the one missing out on the trend.
SARAH: And you are a boomer
KAYLA: I'm not.
SARAH: You're a boomer. You're older than me.
KAYLA: Okay, I feel like you're just deflecting from the fact that you didn't know something, and maybe we should unpack that.
SARAH: I think it's funner-
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: if I call you a boomer.
KAYLA: Okay, interesting. So anyway, the reason I thought of this is that, let's back up. Medium ugliness is when…
SARAH: You are mid.
KAYLA: You are mid. It is… okay, I don't even know what… okay, I'll back up again. The reason I thought of this topic this week was because I had seen this article going around about how the way a man can look hottest right now is kind of looking a little bit like a rat.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And it's like Jeremy Allen White and the guy from Challengers.
SARAH: Not the Broadway man, the other man.
KAYLA: Yeah, not the blonde one, the brown-haired one. I forget who the other like Matty Healy.
SARAH: Matty Healy. Hold on, there was a whole post and it had several people on it.
KAYLA: Just kind of like men that kind of look like dirty little rats.
SARAH: Oh, Kieran Culkin.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: The guy who is dating Sabrina Carpenter.
KAYLA: Barry Cohen.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Yes. So, men that are just like, they have like rat like features and aren't like…
SARAH: Yes
KAYLA: I would say traditionally like hot. They're not like a Ryan Gosling in The Notebook.
SARAH: Right.
KAYLA: You know what I mean?
SARAH: I'm looking at this image of these four hot rodents.
KAYLA: All white also, they're always white, these rodents.
SARAH: All white. We've got Barry Keohan.
KAYLA: Yeah, I guess I don't know how to say it.
SARAH: Jeremy Allen White, Kieran Culkin, and the Challengers guy. What's his fucking name?
KAYLA: I have no idea. He's not like faced, so I was…
SARAH: What’s his fucking name? Also, a lot of people in the Josh O'Connor's team. A lot of people in their replies are like pretty angry that Kieran Culkin is included in this.
KAYLA: Why?
SARAH: I think he gives off rodent vibes.
KAYLA: He doesn't have as pointy of a face though, I don’t understand
SARAH: He's a lot more like symmetrical just like looking at this image.
KAYLA: Yeah, that's fair.
SARAH: But we can get into that.
KAYLA: But I do feel like he fits into the category of medium ugly. And I like don’t… I’m not…
SARAH: I think they could have picked a better photo to convey it.
KAYLA: Highlight his rodent-ness? Yeah
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: I don't want to sound mean in this episode. I'm not trying to call these people ugly because clearly they're not.
SARAH: Yeah. And that’s when I was like, okay, ugly is so subjective. What even is ugly? Going into this, I was like, I feel like we need to define ugly because what is ugly? No one knows.
KAYLA: Well, Okay. And so, here's the thing about this, is like medium ugly describes a man who like isn't ugly, but also not like, oh, so hot, sexy. It's like these men who look like rodents where there's like something slightly off that makes them not like your typical movie star. Like your fear face is perfect. You know what I mean?
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And that's what makes them medium ugly.
SARAH: A little asymmetrical thing.
KAYLA: Yeah. There's like something a little weird.
SARAH: Like you could not cut anything with their jaw.
KAYLA: No, probably not.
SARAH: Like, I don't I don't know how to describe it. And like, it's all so subjective about like Western expectations of what beauty is, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I do think it has a lot to do with symmetry and also just like similar-ness to a rodent.
KAYLA: Fair. Well, so… Okay, so backing up, but also going forward. So, the reason I thought of this topic was because of the rodent article and it made me think of medium ugliness, which Sarah had never heard of. But I have seen
SARAH: Mid
KAYLA: As… Shut up. I have seen.
SARAH: Sorry, there's no mid people on my feed.
KAYLA: Anyway, I have seen as a TikTok trend of like girls in particular talking about like, I love medium ugly men. Like I am like obsessed with these like famous people or whoever that are medium ugly or like I always go for medium ugly men.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: Notably, I was talking to Perry and Dean about this, my roommate Perry, my boyfriend Dean. Dean had not heard of it. Perry had. And I was…
SARAH: Dean is chronically offline, I feel
KAYLA: Incorrect. He's chronically online.
SARAH: He's not in the same online as I am.
KAYLA: Very… just like… very… just sports.
SARAH: Yeah, I was going to say he's chronically off… He's in a different line.
KAYLA: He is on a different web than we are. But Perry knew what it was. And Perry made the point like, “well, of course, Sarah has not come across people talking about medium ugliness. Like, why would that be in her algorithm?” And I was like, “that's an excellent point. This is not the content she's engaging with.” But anyway, so I was like, “I want to talk about this phenomenon of like, why are we all talking about medium ugliness and why are people attracted to people who are like a little bit off?”
SARAH: It's because they watched Ratatouille.
KAYLA: Interesting.
SARAH: And they said, “not only do I like the rat, but I also like the guy and then also the woman.” Actually, that's… I think a very good…
KAYLA: Well, she’s not medium ugly. She's hot. Oh, but she likes him and he's medium ugly.
SARAH: She likes him and he's medium ugly. But I also think that speaks to the fact that this medium ugly standard really only applies to men.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: Like you don't see men like cishet men online being like, “oh, my God, look at that medium ugly girl. I love her so much.” Like the expectation is that women are super, super hot all the time still.
KAYLA: Well, I also think that men can't say things like that. Like…
SARAH: No.
KAYLA: I think if a man tried to call a woman medium ugly online, he would get murdered. Like women are allowed to insult men without like getting in trouble.
SARAH: But if you ask a man like… Like if you give a man, your average man…
KAYLA: A cookie
SARAH: A cookie, if you give a man a cookie and on that cookie are photos of women, I feel like the… just, this is total speculation, by the way. But my vibe that I get is that like more women on average would choose a medium ugly man as being like, I want to get to know that guy. Then men would choose what would be defined as a medium ugly woman. You know, does that make sense?
KAYLA: I don't know that I… it makes sense, but I don't know that I agree with that.
SARAH: Okay, you can not agree.
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: That's allowed.
KAYLA: Thank you. I just feel like… I don't… it's not that I like believe in leagues or anything, but I also think that people typically approach people they think that they could like get a good response from. And so, if you're like a medium ugly guy, are you going to like shoot for the hottest woman in the room? I don't know if you have that confidence
[00:10:00]
SARAH: On the Internet, yeah
KAYLA: On the… Okay, well, that's different on the Internet, yes. In person, I feel like people stick a little bit more to like their leagues
SARAH: If you give a man a cookie on the Internet, it's going to take his data and keep it.
KAYLA: Okay, yes. If we're talking about the Internet and like the algorithm, yes, I 100% agree with you. Like it is the hottest people that get pushed to the top by the algorithm.
SARAH: Yeah, because it's like… I think… it's like those guys who are like, “oh, this guy is not as hot, but he is funny.” And so, people… like girls love him because he's, you know, supposedly medium ugly, but he's funny. But that doesn't work as much for women because women don't get the same response if they're funny from men.
KAYLA: Here's what I think it is like why I would think that a medium ugly man would be like a better bet. And I think this about people of all genders. If you grew up hot, you did not do the time building a personality. So, you need someone that is like not the hottest person ever because they cannot just rely on their looks, not even just in a romantic standard...
SARAH: Just… In life
KAYLA: Like it is proven that people that are more attractive get what they want more in life, like in business, in school, in social settings, whatever.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: So, to me, like I don't really trust people, especially men, because I just don't really trust men. I don't trust very attractive men.
SARAH: Yeah, that's fair
KAYLA: You know what I mean? Because what are you doing?
SARAH: If you're too symmetrical, I'm a little freaked out.
KAYLA: It's just like, especially… okay, I especially get scared of people who are very attractive and know they're very attractive.
SARAH: Yeah, that's a dangerous combination
KAYLA: Which like… because there's nothing wrong with being confident. But also, sometimes people know it and they wield it and I’m like, “that’s scary”
SARAH: And they wield it. Yeah
KAYLA: That's scary.
SARAH: That’s fair
KAYLA: I don't want you using your hotness against me.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: But I just… you know
SARAH: Anyway, back to Ratatouille.
KAYLA: Back to… Sorry, yeah, back to Ratatouille.
SARAH: I just think that people saw Ratatouille and they said, “actually, I am bisexual. And also, hear me out the rat.”
KAYLA: Interesting.
SARAH: I think that's what a lot of people said. And that's all I have to say on the matter.
KAYLA: Oh, okay.
SARAH: What's his name? Remi with one M.
KAYLA: Remi is the rat. Linguini is the man. And the woman is?
SARAH: Hot.
KAYLA: Hot. But her name is?
SARAH: I don't remember. Ratatouille.
KAYLA: Shh, I'm thinking. It's like right there.
SARAH: Colette.
KAYLA: Colette.
SARAH: Colette Tatou.
KAYLA: Tatou?
SARAH: T-A-T-O-U.
KAYLA: That’s crazy.
SARAH: I can't believe that guy's name was Alfredo Linguini. I know it was a fucking Pixar movie, but like…
KAYLA: It's funny. Linguini.
SARAH: Anyway
KAYLA: Here's another theory I have.
SARAH: I'm ready.
KAYLA: About medium ugliness. It's not my theory. I didn't come up with it.
SARAH: Wow.
KAYLA: It's a…
SARAH: Wow.
KAYLA: Anyway. My friend was telling me that… this was like a while ago that we had this conversation, that he had watched a series of videos of these people talking about how the human brain was not built or not used to seeing so many hot people all the time. We are used to just seeing the people we see in everyday life. Those are the people we are exposed to. And then all of a sudden, pictures and movies and now the internet or whatever, we're exposed to way more people than ever. And it happened very, very rapidly.
SARAH: That's probably why everyone in LA is insane.
KAYLA: Probably. But it happens to everyone. We're all just inundated with seeing so many people and so many of them are hot.
SARAH: And my point is that in LA, people that you meet in real life are disproportionately hot
KAYLA: Obvious
SARAH: Because they come to LA because they're hot.
KAYLA: To be hot. Yeah.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Yeah. But anyway, our brains are like, “huh? We're not used to it.” And so, part of me wonders if the allure of a medium ugly person, which is to say a normal fucking looking person.
SARAH: Yeah. Just a normal individual.
KAYLA: Like medium ugly people are just normal. That's just like what a person looks like. They're not ugly. It's just like they're an average fucking person.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: And so, part of me wonders if the appeal specifically of a medium ugly celebrity is that they look like a fucking normal person. That they're not a model or a Ryan Reynolds super chiseled jaw or just the most gorgeous person you've seen. It's like, “oh, that person kind of looks like me.” Their face is a little fucked up in whatever way. They kind of look like a rat or whatever. That's just like me.
SARAH: Or maybe they look like a bird. Perhaps they look like a turtle.
KAYLA: They don't all look like birds, Sarah.
SARAH: I don't need this from you.
KAYLA: You brought up birds.
SARAH: It was an example. I next said turtle.
KAYLA: Okay. Like Mitch McConnell?
SARAH: Yes. Like Mitch McConnell.
KAYLA: Like Mitch McConnell.
SARAH: Frog. Like Tom Holland.
KAYLA: Like… do you think he looks like a frog?
SARAH: He doesn't. I just thought of those pictures where he looks like he has a frog in his mouth.
KAYLA: Oh
SARAH: The person I know who looks like a frog is not a public figure. And you don't know them either. So, I can't just be like…
KAYLA: Not helpful
SARAH: This person looks like a friend is not helpful.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But I do know a person who looks a lot like a frog.
KAYLA: Congrats.
SARAH: Anyway
KAYLA: Anyway
SARAH: Yeah, I feel like that sort of makes sense. Like, oh, that's just a normal dude, a normal fella.
KAYLA: Yeah. I don't think like… obviously, I don't think it's good to be calling people ugly at all. But I can understand the use of that terminology, like in a celebrity discourse of like, I like celebrity men who look like little rats or whatever, where I don't think it's helpful is in real life.
SARAH: Yeah, I agree.
KAYLA: Like, I don't know that it's helpful for like you as a person to be like, “Oh my God, I always go for medium ugly men.” Like, is that something we really need to be like saying?
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: And putting out there?
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Because again, to me, medium ugly just means like your average looking person.
SARAH: Right.
KAYLA: So, it's like, do you really need to say like my type is just like someone that's not really ugly and someone that's not like the hottest person you've ever seen in your life?
SARAH: And I also feel like with celebrities, it's one thing to talk about medium ugly celebrities as a concept. But you should never like tell a celebrity to their face that they're medium ugly.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like, I just… like it's… it should be… you should be a step removed. You should never be, you know, really having that conversation. Because… like, even if you mean it in a good way, like, “Oh, I think you're so hot. You're medium ugly.”
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I can still see why someone would take that as like, “okay, you still called me ugly.”
KAYLA: I mean, yeah, that’s mean
SARAH: Oh, thank you for telling me I'm average looking. I appreciate it. I also think… sorry, I'm just still looking at this photo of like the rise of hot rodent stars. They chose a picture that was too good of Kieran Culkin. That's really their failure. His jaw looks too chiseled.
KAYLA: Interesting.
SARAH: And I know… because like… dude, I've watched Succession. I know that he's a rat boy.
KAYLA: I know that he's a rat boy.
SARAH: And that's partially because his character on Succession, a huge rat boy, but Kieran Culkin himself… Kieran Culkin himself also has some rat boy energy.
KAYLA: Yeah, I do see it. I do see the rodent vibes.
SARAH: I don't… I don't… It's just… I feel like whenever people are like, “Oh, medium ugly, that person is mid,” oh, whatever. It's like, it just means they're like, not totally symmetrical.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: Or maybe like their ears stick out more than usual.
KAYLA: Yes. Or they just have some like, probably definable feature.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: You know those like… people will do like this person with perfect bone structure, and they're like, what? No. There's these…
SARAH: Yeah, will like fix the person’s bone structure
KAYLA: They'll like drag the drawing of like, the ‘perfect face’ over a celebrity and they'll like distort… like Photoshop their face.
SARAH: I usually see that with like Shrek and stuff, but yeah.
KAYLA: Oh, I'm looking at Reddit, can you believe? And there's a post from four months ago asking why do some people say they like medium ugly men or men who are a little ugly, it genuinely baffles me. One of the top comments says, “I used to be one of these types. I realized later on, it wasn't ugliness I was attracted to. I had just been convinced by the media that anything not matching their vision of beauty was ugly. I already knew I preferred the opposite of what they wanted me to I just didn't realize they made me internalize a shitty way of describing it. These days, I put it as I'm attracted to people who look like themselves. If you look too much like everyone else, or like someone on TV, or if you're polishing down your rough edges, I'm not interested.”
SARAH: I think it's about being attracted to realness.
KAYLA: Yes. Which is why I say like, I don't trust hot people. I feel like when I said… I keep thinking about how I said that. And I feel like it came out the wrong way. I don't trust people that look the same as everyone else. And I feel like a lot of hot people just all look the same because they're trying to follow those conventional beauty standards. They're all using the like… they're dressing the same. They're using the same beauty tips or whatever.
SARAH: If you look at the most successful comedians, they're not necessarily all models. Because as you said earlier, if you're hot, you don't have to try so hard.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But I think it's also just like… I don't know, I had a thought and then I lost it. I'm staring at a lot of photos of Kieran Culkin right now.
KAYLA: You have to stop.
SARAH: I just… I have one thing to say. I think if he were taller, he would be considered more stereotypically attractive. He's short.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: That's part of his problem.
KAYLA: We don't need to be analyzing him, Sarah. This is mean.
[00:20:00]
SARAH: I love Kieran Culkin. I'm not doing this out of malice. I'm just trying to understand.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: He's 5'6". He's a little guy. He could fit in my pocket.
KAYLA: You're 5'6". Not even.
SARAH: No, I'm not. I'm 5'4". There's some podcast lore for you. Now you know how tall I am.
KAYLA: Now you know.
SARAH: Kayla is the same height, but she's…
KAYLA: I'm also 5'4".
SARAH: Crouches.
KAYLA: There's a lot of people in these comments, going back to what I was talking about.
SARAH: Sorry.
KAYLA: A lot of people in these comments talking about how people saying medium ugly or mid or whatever, it's just a meaner way of saying unconventionally attractive.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Like what you're really saying is like this person is attractive, but not by current beauty standards, but I still find them attractive. And I guess that's not a fun enough way to say that, so you have to call people medium ugly.
SARAH: Yeah. Not to make this about K-pop.
KAYLA: You? Oh. So yes, you.
SARAH: However, I've talked about this before. Korean beauty standards are very specific. You can list them. There are videos online taking idols from different groups and ranking them based on how many beauty standards they meet.
KAYLA: That is wild.
SARAH: And so, like then defining who is the “hottest” member according to Korean beauty standards based on like statistics, supposedly.
KAYLA: Ew.
SARAH: And several of the members of… I would say most of the members of BTS do not meet those like stereotypical or they don't meet enough of those stereotypical beauty standards, but people still think they're really attractive. Imagine that. It is interesting like the difference in like people from the West versus like people in Korea, but then also with people in the West. You can consider racism too. But Jimin is a good example where I watched a video one time where it was like Jimin only meets four out of 10 of the Korean beauty standards.
KAYLA: Oh
SARAH: But he also has his whole Jimin effect where he makes every man gay. Like those two things exist at the same time.
KAYLA: Well, what are you going to do?
SARAH: Members of BTS, especially like in the early days, like they got hate for being ugly. People still try to go after BTS or like BTS fans being like, “is this the man you stan?” And it's like the best photo of RM you've ever seen. And you're like, “yeah.”
KAYLA: Well, part of me wonders if that's like… that is the difference between like Korean fans and Western fans is that like to us maybe BTS is the most attractive K-pop band because our beauty standards are different and to them, they're like, “what a bunch of uggos.”
SARAH: Oh, absolutely. That's definitely a part of it. Or like you look at a good example of a K-pop idol who was born and raised, I don't know if she was born here, but she was raised in the United States is Jessie. And she does not… she intentionally does not adhere to Korean beauty standards. She adheres to more Western ones. She looks more Kardashian than she does the Korean standards. She's not constantly trying to lighten her skin. She has a big ass. She has fake boobs and she's open about the fact that they're fake. She overdraws her lip, that sort of thing. And it's just very interesting because it's like, okay, well, she's 100% Korean, but she was raised in a different culture. And so, she's expressing her Korean-ness in a more Western way. And it's always just interesting to see how the general public in various different cultures react differently to that.
KAYLA: Yeah. I mean I think it definitely is a racial thing too. When I think about the celebrities I see called medium ugly, they're always white men, which is a good thing, I guess. I don't want people calling people of other races ugly.
SARAH: I think there's also a layer of the only people we can define as medium ugly are white men.
KAYLA: Speak on that.
SARAH: Because anyone else, we'd get canceled.
KAYLA: I see. Yeah
SARAH: For calling them medium ugly, you know what I mean?
KAYLA: Yeah, that's fair.
SARAH: Unless you are of that racial or ethnic background and you're talking about your own…
KAYLA: Your own group?
SARAH: Group.
KAYLA: Yeah. But yeah, you're right. Because if people started calling female celebrities in groups on mass medium ugly, I feel like that would not go over well.
SARAH: No.
KAYLA: We'll get mad.
SARAH: Yeah. So, it's weird. I mean, it's all political. It's all… what is medium ugly? The answer is… why do we like rats? Probably because of Ratatouille
KAYLA: Okay. So, I just was… I looked up like medium ugly theory
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: On… oh, you know, another classic medium ugly guy, Pete Davidson. I feel like he was the one to start it all.
SARAH: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah
KAYLA: Everyone was like, he's so hot, but also I think he's so ugly.
SARAH: I wouldn't say he's rat.
KAYLA: No.
SARAH: He's a different brand.
KAYLA: But I think the rat thing is a newer phenomenon. The rat thing is like a post Jeremy Allen White phenomenon.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: I feel like he started it. Anyway, I looked up medium ugly theory on TikTok and I did find a video about women. It's these two women on their podcast talking about how one of their friends got approached at a bar by a guy and she got offended because she said that only medium ugly girls get approached and that really pretty girls never get approached because they're intimidating. And so, the fact that she got approached, she was like offended. She's like, “well, this must mean I'm not...”
SARAH: It must mean I'm ugly.
KAYLA: Yes. Which is such a wild...
SARAH: My God.
KAYLA: I don't know how to react to that at all. I really don't understand that.
SARAH: Yeah, that's odd. I do think one thing about specifically the rat, the hot rat, is a lot of times the guys who fall under the category of hot rat don't have like the stereotypical perfect nose. And I think that's part of the reason why they remind us of rats.
KAYLA: Sure
SARAH: Because if they have a more like bulbous, you know, it's like, oh, it's like a little rat. But I think that also there's definitely some… I guess it's not racism if they're all white, but like ethnic bias going into that where it's like these men cannot be stereotypically hot because they have this fault, which is their nose is too big or their nose isn't right. And therefore, they have to be in this secondary category.
KAYLA: Yeah, that is fucked up.
SARAH: It is fucked up.
KAYLA: Well, I think… just thinking about this more, it almost feels like categorizing men as medium ugly is like giving yourself an excuse to find a man attractive who is not conventionally attractive. Like thinking about Pete Davidson, it's like obviously one of the main reasons he's probably attracted to people is because he's very funny and charismatic, but he is not conventionally attractive. And so, if you as a woman are like, “oh my God, he's my celebrity crush,” you might feel like you need an excuse for feeling that way. And so that's when you can just be like, “well, I like…” you know what I mean? Like it almost gives you a thing of like, “well, that's my thing. I like medium ugly guys.”
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Like it's okay that I like these men who aren't conventionally attractive.
SARAH: Yeah. I also… there are I think some instances where conventionally attractive people aren't symmetrical and yet they're still considered conventionally attractive. Do you find Timothée Chalamet to be symmetrical?
KAYLA: I think he is.
SARAH: I don't find him to be symmetrical.
KAYLA: I mean, I don't find him to be like particularly attractive. Like he is not my type. Like he looks like a little baby to me.
SARAH: I don't think he's fully symmetrical or who was Tyler Posey?
KAYLA: Who's that?
SARAH: He was on Teen Wolf. Google him. He's very much not symmetrical, but he's very much considered like hot guy.
KAYLA: Oh, I see. Um, why is he hot? He is.
SARAH: If you do that thing that those videos did of those K-pop idols of like, do they meet this requirement, this requirement and this requirement? I don't think you would necessarily come to all the same conclusions. It's kind of like how I was like, if Kieran Culkin was taller, would we think he is rat hot?
KAYLA: Yeah, I don't know.
SARAH: And I think, not to say you have to be short to be rat hot because Josh O'Connor is…
KAYLA: Tall
SARAH: But…
KAYLA: I think all these men just have pointy faces.
SARAH: Yeah, I guess.
KAYLA: The way a rat does.
SARAH: But like, I think there is definitely something about like, an aura and a vibe…
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: That informs whether this person is conventionally attractive or not. That's not always about how they actually look.
KAYLA: Yeah, I think that's very true. I also don't think it's always about the face.
SARAH: Yeah, body-ody-ody-ody-ody-ody ody.
KAYLA: Everyone, I think, got especially obsessed with Jeremy Allen White when he did the Calvin Klein ads…
SARAH: The Calvin Klein, yeah
KAYLA: Where he was like super ripped.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: I mean, that's a huge thing for men right now, is like, the deep need to be very muscular. And like, it is, I think, a thing that is not talked about enough is like, the body standards that are put on men and like, the disorders that it causes in men, like, and the body dysmorphia. Like, I don't think… I think like, in the coming years, that will prove to be like, a big issue that's going to have to be addressed.
SARAH: We'll have to kind of finally come to terms with like, some of these people who are like, big fitness whatever, like, obsessive about whatever, like, actually have eating disorders. Like, it's not just being healthy. Some of y'all are eating in a disordered way.
KAYLA: Yeah.
[00:30:00]
SARAH: And that's on that.
KAYLA: Tea. But… so like, I think that's part of it as well, is that you can be like, you know, this man has like, the perfect body or whatever, but like, I don't… his face isn't for me, so he's going to be medium ugly now. I don't know.
SARAH: Yeah, I guess. I don't know. I looked up like, what makes someone like ugly or what makes them attractive. And so many of the things that people were like, saying in these posts were not about physical attributes at all. And so, I was getting frustrated. I was like, “I want to know.”
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But I found this Quora post that's what physical feature is usually considered ugly that you find attractive. This person is saying, “I really like crooked teeth.” And you know what? Speaking of BTS's Park Jimin, he has a toof.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: ARMY knows it as toof.
KAYLA: Is it the one where he looks like an American Girl doll?
SARAH: No, that's Yoongi.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: He has a toof, one of his front teeth is like crooked. It's like, it like kind of crosses over the other one. But like, his teeth are like, pretty much perfect otherwise. And so, ARMY is like, oh my god, it's toof. Look at toof. It's so cute. It's toof. But like, a couple years ago, he was like, yeah, I think I'm going to get it fixed. And ARMY was like, noooo
KAYLA: No
SARAH: Not toof.
KAYLA: Oh my God.
SARAH: Sometimes it's called juuf, Jimin toof.
KAYLA: Oh, interesting.
SARAH: Yeah. Anyway, this person says, like crows feet, like, laughter lines by your eyes.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: This person says, “chubby people,” which like, evolutionarily makes sense.
KAYLA: Yeah, I mean, back in the day, that was the beauty standard. Like, the fatter you were, the more attractive you were, because it showed you had wealth. Like, I feel like timeline wise, like skinny being the standard is probably like a relatively new.
SARAH: Yeah, definitely. This person is talking about how they have a really atrocious… they've called their nose atrocious.
KAYLA: Oh
SARAH: It has been broken a few times. So, what used to be a somewhat regular Roman looking nose is now the hunchback of Notre Dame of noses.
KAYLA: No.
SARAH: Um, anyway, there wasn't really a point to that. I just thought it was funny that the way this was phrased.
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: But like, I don't know, what is ugly? What is medium? What is face? What is person?
KAYLA: What is hot?
SARAH: What is cold? What is yes? What is no? What is in? What is out? What is up? What is down? What is wrong? What is right? What is black? What is right? What is white? We fight, we break up. We kiss, we make up.
KAYLA: You think you're so funny.
SARAH: I am. Thank you. It makes me hotter.
KAYLA: Oh, okay. That's interesting.
SARAH: I don't know. Kayla, you're driving this episode. Do you have anything else to say?
KAYLA: Yeah, I don't know either. Like I think this is just a classic thing at Sounds Fake, I don't know, on some level like I do understand… I do understand the on mass attraction of people that just look normal. I totally get that. And like, I also totally get being attracted to features that are not conventionally attractive. Like, obviously, it's just interesting to me that it has manifested in this like, this phrase, I guess of medium ugly. And like, I don't know, makes me curious about why.
SARAH: I think there's also… I saw something when I was looking stuff up and now it's gone. And I can't find it. But someone mentioned how like evolutionarily the reason why we find like symmetry, and like strong jaw lines and that sort of thing attractive is because it indicates that a person is strong and has good genes and won't die. Like, just like is in better health, they have a sturdier body, they have whatever. And these days, humans don't have to worry about that as much.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And so, I feel like we can now be like, well, I will like a hot rodent as a treat.
KAYLA: I will like Timothy Chalamet, a little Victorian boy who could not protect me if our lives depended on it.
SARAH: Who I personally find to be asymmetrical.
KAYLA: No, I think that's a good point, though.
SARAH: And so like, we're just able to move away from that and be like, actually, this like, evolutionary instinctive stuff doesn't fucking matter anymore.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: So, I can like whatever I want to like. And y'all can say that dog looks like a rat, but he is my rat.
KAYLA: He’s my rat and I love him. Well, I also wonder if some of it is like, the beginning of a breakdown of gender beauty standards. I'm especially thinking of like myself as a bi woman. Like, I'm not attracted to like the manliest of men.
SARAH: Mm-hmm.
KAYLA: You know? Because it's like that's just not…
SARAH: Androgyny in general, I think is becoming more attractive to like the general public.
KAYLA: Yes, I think that's true.
SARAH: Like, you know, those posts where it's like, x person is like, if a man and a woman had a baby.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: Like that.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: That's it. I saw a post recently about Jimin where it was like, he's like, if a woman and a woman had a baby.
KAYLA: Oh my God, he’s so stupid
SARAH: Anyway
KAYLA: But I feel like we just like aren't… there's just like not a good way to talk about that kind of thing in like a succinct manner. So, I feel like it… This trend started as people just like being silly online being like, “Oh, I like my men a little ugly,” just to like be funny or as like a shorthand way of saying that you find unconventionally attractive people attractive. And it just like snowballed into a thing of like, medium ugly and then it gets picked up by like, relationship influencers or like, you know, like Talk Show-type people, you know
SARAH: This man does not have the strong forehead that the Romans favored and that makes him a little more feminine looking. And I'm allowed to find that attractive, you know?
KAYLA: Yeah. Yeah.
SARAH: Again, what is masculine? What is feminine? It's all just rocks. Why did I want to say that?
KAYLA: It's not.
SARAH: It's all a pile of pebbles. Um, yeah, that's all. Yep. Kayla?
KAYLA: Yep.
SARAH: We're done.
KAYLA: Yep
SARAH: What's our poll for this week?
KAYLA: Are you medium ugly?
SARAH: Who's your... You know when people talk about like, who's your hear me out?
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: Like, I kind of want to know who people's like, hear me out person is.
KAYLA: I like that.
SARAH: Where it's like, other people don't necessarily find them conventionally attractive, but like, you really find them attractive. And it doesn't… and it can be in an arospec and an aspec way. I'm still here making judgments.
KAYLA: It's true.
SARAH: Um, but yeah, I'm curious as to who people's like, hear me out person is.
KAYLA: Yeah. I don't know if I have one. I'm trying to think.
SARAH: Yeah, I would have to think about it. And don't say spirit the horse.
KAYLA: I won't. I have a friend who would say that. But my ‘hear me out’ is that Paul Rudd and James Marsden look the same, that is ‘my hear me out.’
SARAH: That's not what we're asking for here.
KAYLA: I know, but it is a ‘hear me out.’
SARAH: You know, actually, I think that is a really interesting point. Because I think James Marsden and Paul Rudd are both attractive men.
KAYLA: Mm hmm.
SARAH: But I think a lot of people might classify them as either different types of attractive or different tiers of attractive.
KAYLA: I would say James Marsden is prettier than Paul Rudd. He's a pretty boy.
SARAH: He has the stereotypical…
KAYLA: Paul Rudd is slightly more like rugged.
SARAH: Yes, I would agree. And so, the fact that you can't tell those things apart.
KAYLA: I can't. They're so similar. Well, it depends on like the… Okay, it's really comes down to the facial hair. Because if I'm thinking of James Marsden in Hairspray where he's like very clean cut and…
SARAH: He has got like cheekbones. He has got…
KAYLA: He does. But like he, you know, he's a little baby face. He's like a pretty boy. But like, if they had like more facial hair, I feel like they look more like gruff or whatever. They look the same to me
SARAH: James Marsden is just so much sharper than Paul Rudd is.
KAYLA: Yeah, but as they both age, it's getting more and more difficult, the less and less sharp they become. How am I supposed to keep them apart? I can't.
SARAH: I'm just… I'm looking at them next to each other and I'm just like, Paul…
KAYLA: They look the same
SARAH: Paul Rudd has a narrower face.
KAYLA: They look the same
SARAH: They don't look the same.
KAYLA: Hear me out. Hear me out. They look the same
SARAH: They don’t look the same
KAYLA: They just do.
SARAH: Anyway. Okay. Um, Kayla, what's your beef and your juice for this week?
KAYLA: My beef is the middle seat on a plane. Fuck that shit. Awful. My juice is the television program Derry Girls. So good. Very funny.
SARAH: Nicola Coughlan, icon
KAYLA: Also, truffles, really yummy.
SARAH: What's wrong? I don't. I saw that you were like hunting for truffles. And I was like…
KAYLA: I did hunt for truffles.
SARAH: I was like, I dislike this so much. There's something…
KAYLA: Have you tried one?
SARAH: I've had truffle fries.
KAYLA: A truffle fry?
SARAH: And I did not like them.
KAYLA: It's a pretty like strong flavor, I feel like for some people. But I did go truffle hunting with a dog named Barto.
SARAH: Oh, Barto.
KAYLA: He was very sweet.
SARAH: Amazing. My beef is uncontrollably itchy legs.
KAYLA: Itchy
SARAH: That have been itchy for about a week and a half.
KAYLA: I’m sorry
SARAH: And have gone through periods of like being noticeably itchy for like many hours consecutively.
KAYLA: You should see someone about that.
[00:40:00]
SARAH: Yeah, I have some like… you know, like when you get like a bug bite or something, and then you scratch it too much and then it like kind of scabs?
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: I have like a couple of those and I don't know where they came from.
KAYLA: Do you have bed bugs?
SARAH: I'll kill myself.
KAYLA: You should check your bed, like they’re scary
SARAH: No, I don't. I washed my sheets less than two weeks ago.
KAYLA: Well, did you use a different detergent?
SARAH: No. You've stressed me out so much.
KAYLA: I'm sorry. As soon as I said it, I was like, I've just sent her something...
SARAH: I genuinely don't think I do. But I am just like, I'm itching my leg right now. But I am just like, why? Where? Why? And why won't it stop?
KAYLA: That's fair.
SARAH: I'm like just like trying to get them to heal. And I'm hoping the itchiness will go away when that happens, but I don't know. My juice is when people ask me if I want to hang out and I'm like, “OMG, yeah”
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: That's my juice.
KAYLA: It's a really good one.
SARAH: You can tell us about your beef, your juice, your local hot rodent on our… it can also be a real rodent, I would like to see your hot…
KAYLA: Sure. I like the… I like the rat that's in the shower. You know the picture of the rat showering?
SARAH: I might have to see it.
KAYLA: Go find it
SARAH: I can't come up with it in my brain.
KAYLA: You know it.
SARAH: I sent you a singing rat the other day.
KAYLA: I know.
SARAH: And you didn't like it.
KAYLA: Her name was Marguerite.
SARAH: Her name was Marguerite. Um, anyway, you can tell us about those things on our social media @SoundsFakePod. We also have a Patreon, Patreon.com/SoundsFakePod. If you'd like to support us there. We have two new $2 patrons. I hope you feel like you got something out of this podcast because I'm not sure you did.
KAYLA: No
SARAH: They are Justin Meurer and Tim. They're actually both two Euro patrons. So, thank you. Thank you, Europeanly.
KAYLA: Grazie.
SARAH: Kayla was just in Italy.
KAYLA: I was.
SARAH: Our $5 patrons who we are promoting this week… thank you to the two of you, by the way. Just want to clarify.
KAYLA: Grazie mille.
SARAH: Grazie mille. Dankeschon. Filndank.
KAYLA: Merci beaucoup.
SARAH: Gracias. Muchos Gracias
KAYLA: Muchos Gracias. Stupid
SARAH: We're very good at languages.
KAYLA: Yeah. We’re something
SARAH: Kamsahamnida. How do you fucking say it in Japanese? I feel like I know this. No, I don't. Okay. Um, xiexie. That's how you say it in Chinese.
KAYLA: Thank you
SARAH: Except that's more of like, thanks. It's less like, thank you so much.
KAYLA: Thank you so much.
SARAH: It's more casual. Anyway, um, what? Our $5 patrons who we're promoting this week are Kelly, Leila, Liam Girard, Lily, and Mary S. Our $10 patrons who are promoting something this week are Barefoot Backpacker, who would like to promote their YouTube channel rtwbarefoot, SongOStorm, who would like to promote a healthy work-life balance, Val, who would like to promote itching their nose, very important, Alyson who would like to promote Arden Gray by Ray Stoeve, and Ani, who would like to promote the importance of being kind to yourself and others, even when you remain to this day, um, self-conscious about how you pronounce Ani's name, every single Chinese name.
KAYLA: Oh, no.
SARAH: Because you feel as though you're bridging the gap in an incorrect way. I see the monkey.
KAYLA: It's a rat. This is the rat showering. What do you mean the monkey?
SARAH: Kayla is holding her phone up to her zoom camera.
KAYLA: It is a rat taking a shower.
SARAH: Okay. Yeah. I see it now.
KAYLA: Certainly, you've seen this rat.
SARAH: No. From a distance, it looked like a monkey. It reminded me of Ikea monkey.
KAYLA: I love Ikea monkey. There's this video, it's from like 2018 of this rat taking a shower. How have you never seen this?
SARAH: I don't know.
KAYLA: It's so sweet.
SARAH: Okay. Hi, gnocchi.
KAYLA: Oh my god, look at him.
SARAH: Okay. It's very hard for me to see that. It's not showing up well on the camera.
KAYLA: I’ll send it to you, don’t worry
SARAH: I don't remember if I said this, but Ani would like to promote the importance of being kind to yourself and others. Uh, Arcnes would like… nope Arcnes, you're promoting something next week. Our other $10 patrons are Arcnes, Benjamin Ybarra, Bones, Celina Dobson, David Harris, Derick & Carissa, Elle Bitter, my Aunt Jeannie, Kayla's Dad, Maff, Martin Chiesl, Parker and Purple Hayes. No. Did I say them twice? Maybe. I don't know. Yes. Our $15 patrons are Ace who would like to promote the writer Crystal Scherer, Andrew Hillum who would like to promote the Invisible Spectrum Podcast, Dia Chappell who would like to promote Twitch.tv/MelodyDia, Hector Murillo who would like to promote Friends that are supportive, constructive, and help you grow as a better person, Nathaniel White who would like to promote NathanielJWhiteDesigns.com, Kayla’s Aunt Nina who would like to promote katemaggartart.com, and Phoenix Leodinh
KAYLA: Very good
SARAH: Or is it Li-o-din? I think it's probably Li-o-din, but they did say oh not uh in their clarification.
KAYLA: I see. I would also like to thank Stephanie who sent us some money on PayPal…
SARAH: Thank you, Stephanie…
KAYLA: Which was very nice of Stephanie
SARAH: That's so nice. Also, Schnell who would like to promote accepting that everyone is different and it's awesome.
KAYLA: That's good.
SARAH: Many things to thank. Our $20 patrons are Dragonfly and my mom and Dr. Jacki.
KAYLA: Jackiii
SARAH: Dr. Jacki who would like to promote completing her dissertation. Hell yeah Dr. Jacki and Dragonfly and my mom would like to promote Ratatouille the movie. It holds up.
KAYLA: It does. We watch it often in this house.
SARAH: Thanks for listening, tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.
KAYLA: And until then take good care of your rats
SARAH: And your cows.
KAYLA: Mm
[END OF TRANSCRIPT]
