Sounds Fake But Okay
Sounds Fake But Okay
316: Unconditional Love
Hey what's up hello! This week we talk about unconditional love - Is it real? Should it exist? What problems does it cause? We also talk a lot about hell. I don't know man. You know how this podcast is.
Content Warnings: discussion of school shootings
Episode Transcript: www.soundsfakepod.com/transcripts/unconditional-love
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[00:00:00]
SARAH: Hey, what's up? Hello! Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl. (I'm Sarah, that's me.)
KAYLA: And a bi demisexual girl, that's me, Kayla.
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don't understand.
KAYLA: On today's episode, Unconditional Love.
BOTH: Sounds Fake But Okay.
SARAH: Welcome back to the pod.
KAYLA: Welcome back to Sarah's forearm. Now, newly tattooed.
SARAH: Oh. Just like… what?
KAYLA: I… like when you had your other arm down, it was like perfectly in the shot and I was like, there it is.
SARAH: You ruined my juice.
KAYLA: Fuck. She got the Aven sword tattooed upon her.
SARAH: The Aven sword? I didn't even think about that because my parents were both like, is it a specific sword?
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And I was like, no, it's my, it's my sword.
KAYLA: It’s Aven’s sword. Yeah.
SARAH: And, damn, I should just go around telling everyone that it's the Aven sword.
KAYLA: I think that would not cause any questions or confusion at all.
SARAH: It does actually have a very teeny tiny minor BTS reference in it though.
KAYLA: Oh God. Oh God.
SARAH: But it's the sort of thing that you would not know unless I told it to you. Like any random person would not, even if you're a BTS fan, you would not know.
KAYLA: Well now I have to know.
SARAH: I'll explain it in the juice section.
KAYLA: Oh, the, oh, the suspense.
SARAH: You'll find out later. Kayla, do we have any housekeeping?
KAYLA: Not for the listeners. There sure are a lot of emails I need to be looking at, but it's none of all your business.
SARAH: It's not your problem.
KAYLA: That's just my, my personal things that I'm ignoring.
SARAH: Ooh
KAYLA: Oh, neck crack?
SARAH: I accidentally started cracking my neck sideways. You know how I hate cracking my neck sideways?
KAYLA: Yeah. I know you hate when I do it. You hate when anyone does it.
SARAH: I like accidentally started doing it.
KAYLA: That's the problem. And once you start cracking a joint, it like cracks forever.
SARAH: Yeah. And like, I still get a little, like I can't, I can't use my hand for it. Like I still feel like I'm gonna, I'm gonna crack… I'm gonna pull my head off. But now sometimes I crack my neck sideways…
KAYLA: Oh, and it’s got some good cracks
SARAH: Even though that used to be very scary to me.
KAYLA: I’m so proud of you
SARAH: So, we're changing and evolving as people.
KAYLA: Overcoming your fears.
SARAH: I don't know that that's necessarily like a good fear to overcome.
KAYLA: Oh yeah. I don't think it's bad for you.
SARAH: Well, they say that the real problem with cracking, because people are like, oh, cracking your knuckles will give you arthritis. Not necessarily. The actual cracking of the knuckles supposedly is not going to cause, or the knuckles or whatever things you're cracking, are not necessarily going to cause long-term damage, but the repetitive motion might.
KAYLA: You know something about when I crack my neck? It's sometimes it makes my fingers tingle. Uh oh.
SARAH: Uh oh. Is that your back being silly?
KAYLA: I think it's a more of a muscle thing, because it's usually when I like, I get very tense muscles in like, I don't, is this like the trap?
SARAH: Kind of.
KAYLA: It's like where my neck meets my shoulder kind of. That's where I like, hold a lot of stress.
SARAH: The meaty part?
KAYLA: The meaty part. And so, it gets like really tense and just like the muscle gets hard. And so, I think the muscle like presses on the nerve. And then when I crack my neck, it like moves something around. LOL.
SARAH: Fun. Do we have any physical therapists or chiropractors who listen to this podcast? Let us know.
KAYLA: I'll tell my physical therapist to tell us, I mean, I told her about it. She knows.
SARAH: The other day I asked my sister, I was like, do you think I could retrain how I stand so that it hurts my back less? Like completely change my posture?
KAYLA: I mean, that's what I'm actively in physical therapy for.
SARAH: And she was like, I feel like you should talk to a physical therapist about that.
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: And she was like, or like a personal trainer or something. And I was like, well, when I first started going to physical therapy, like way, way, way back in the day, like over 10 years ago, they told me what I needed to do. Like, I think I know what I need to do to fix it. I just need someone to tell me that I'm correct. And so, I was like, wait. I mean, one of me and Kayla's friends from college, her mom is a physical therapist. And I was like… Do you think she knows?
KAYLA: Probably. But that is like actively one of the big, the big parts of my physical therapy is fixing my posture because my back and core are not strong enough to like hold up my wiggly spine. And that's why other parts of my body are getting fucked up.
SARAH: My mom had that issue with, my mom got her hip replaced this week.
KAYLA: Slay
SARAH: So, she now…
KAYLA: She got a new hip, new hip Nancy
SARAH: New hip. And so, she now has two fake knees and a fake hip. Very exciting.
KAYLA: Oh my God, robot, robot Julie.
SARAH: Still not as much of a robot as my grandma, but she's getting there.
KAYLA: Only time will tell.
SARAH: Only time will tell. And she was hoping to not have to do her hip until she retired, but alas, here we are.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: But she had issues with her knees because it was like bone on bone before her knees were replaced. And her knees were causing her so much pain that it would cause her to walk differently. And that would impact her hips and that would make her lean forward when she was standing. And then she would get back pain.
KAYLA: Good Lord.
SARAH: So, her back pain was caused by her knees.
KAYLA: Yeah, I mean, it's all connected. Like my scoliosis and my flat feet is what causes all of my problems.
SARAH: Yeah. And like, I need to, I know how to fix it. I stand too far back on my heels. I need to tuck my hips under more. So, I'm not like naturally arching my back when I stand, but I can only ever do it when I'm actively thinking about it. This is not the point of the podcast. Kayla, what are we talking about this week?
KAYLA: I have the same problem. This week we're talking about unconditional love. What is she? Is she real? Should we do it?
SARAH: Whompst?
KAYLA: Whompst. The reason I thought of this is, so I was sitting in my work bathroom stall.
SARAH: Classic.
KAYLA: With my heels and my hair straight. And so, I take him to this bar, just kidding.
SARAH: You know what always happens to me when I'm at the bathroom at work?
KAYLA: No.
SARAH: One of my bosses always calls me. Always. Every time.
KAYLA: That's impressive.
SARAH: I'm like, how do you do this?
KAYLA: I'm pissing.
SARAH: Anyway, go on. Go piss, girl.
KAYLA: Anyway, I was sitting in the bathroom stall. It does not matter that I was sitting in the bathroom stall. I just thought that was a funny joke.
SARAH: You were setting the scene.
KAYLA: And I thought of it hours ago, I was like, wouldn't it be funny? Anyway, everyone laughed. He he he
SARAH: He he he
KAYLA: Oh my god, my cat is staring at me, in such a scary fashion, please close your eyes. Oh my god, it's horrifying. So sorry. I was thinking about the show I talked about last week, The Perfect Couple. And this doesn't spoil anything, but there's a line in the show where one of the characters is like, “if I really love someone, shouldn't I be obsessed with them and wanting to spend all this time with them? Shouldn't I be willing to kill for them?” And it was like these sound bikes. It's a show about… or whatever, blah, blah, blah. I was like, ooh, ooh, ooh
SARAH: Ooh, ooh, ooh
KAYLA: But I was thinking about it and I was like, do I love anyone enough to kill someone? Or if they were a murderer and I found out, I'd be like, I still love you.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And then I was like, and that made me think about unconditional love because that's a little cuckoo.
SARAH: A little cuckoo silly times. Yeah, I think it's an interesting topic. Let's define it just for fun.
KAYLA: Well, the thing I was thinking about too, is I think it really also depends on what your definition of love is, which I think is different to anyone. There's not really a standard definition of that. So that's what's also hard.
SARAH: Okay, so let me, I don't want your fucking AI description. No, don't get me an AI review. Fuck you. Okay, let's hit up Wikipedia, who has never been wrong.
KAYLA: Never.
SARAH: But at least that's humans being wrong and not fucking AI.
KAYLA: Tell them.
SARAH: Okay. Unconditional love is an affection without any limitations or love without conditions. This term is sometimes associated with other terms such as true altruism or complete love. Each area of expertise has a different way of describing unconditional love, but most will agree that it is a type of love which has no bounds and is unchanging.
KAYLA: But what is our definition of love then?
SARAH: Great question.
KAYLA: Because…
SARAH: How do you think of the different types of love? Like, how would you define love?
KAYLA: I mean, broadly, like not breaking it into familial love, you know, friendship, romance, whatever.
SARAH: Ooh.
KAYLA: I… yes.
SARAH: Sorry, there's like a sidebar that's like, it's part of a series on love and I was just looking at the other links and one of them is a queer platonic relationship. Anyway, continue.
KAYLA: Oh, slay. I've often thought about it as a willingness to sacrifice for someone else, whether that be time or resources or, you know, emotional energy, that kind of thing. Like, the willingness and the happiness to do so, I think, is something that I often think about. But I mean, I think it just has so many aspects. Like, it's, you know.
SARAH: Yeah, I don't know. Because, like, I guess my question, like, when you were saying, like how are they defining love, my question for that is, what different types of definitions of love would make the meaning of unconditional love different?
[00:10:00]
KAYLA: Yeah, I mean, I guess I don't know that it really matters in this context. I guess it would more matter to, like, what it means to the person who is saying they have unconditional love for someone else.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Yeah, depends on the context.
SARAH: Mm-hmm. Let's see. It goes on to say, in Christianity, unconditional love is thought to be a part of the Four Loves: affection, friendship, eros, and charity. In ethology or the study of animal behavior, unconditional love would refer to altruism, which in turn refers to the behavior by individuals that increases the biological fitness of another while decreasing the fitness of the individual committing the act. In psychology, unconditional love refers to a state of mind in which one has the goal of increasing the welfare of another despite the lack of any evidence of benefit for oneself.
KAYLA: Interesting. The way I was thinking about it, and maybe this is just, like, a layman's way to say that, and I'm not quite understanding, but the way I thought about it is no matter what the other person does, they could wrong you, things could, you know, things could go bad, you're still like, well, I love them.
SARAH: That's how I think about it, too. Like, that's my, like, first definition. Because then the next part, it goes on to talk about conditional love. So conditional love, in some ways, is a way for the lover to diminish the autonomy and relatedness necessary in creating or developing intrinsic motivation. Sure, whatever. Unconditional love, on the other hand, is able to encourage the autonomy and relatedness that leads to personal growth.
KAYLA: I think I understand.
SARAH: Did I understand what I just read?
KAYLA: I think I understand. So conditional love is I will love you if some transaction occurs. Like, you feed me, so now I love you. Unconditional love is like, you could do nothing for me, and I'm still going to love you. That makes sense to me as, like, the scientific definition, but I don't think that's really the pop culture understanding of what unconditional love means.
SARAH: I agree. Well, okay, so here it says, I mean, conditional love is based upon the conditions or expectations of love are being met and satisfied, yeah. Unconditional love should not be confused with unconditional dedication. Unconditional dedication, or duty, refers to an act of the will irrespective of feelings, e.g., a person may consider that they have a duty to stay with someone. Unconditional love is an act of these feelings irrespective of will. It's like the difference between attraction and action. It's literally the same thing.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And then it goes on to say, unconditional love separates the individual from their behavior. However, the individual my exhibit behaviors that are unacceptable in a particular situation. Which I think that goes to how we are thinking of it.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Which is, like, no matter what they do, you will still love them. They could do horrible, horrible things.
KAYLA: Right, even if they are not meeting your conditions, from what you would maybe logically think, okay, this person needs to meet these conditions in order for me to love them.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Even if they do not meet those conditions, you still love them.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: That makes sense.
SARAH: And it says parental love is said to be the best example of unconditional love, and that is the one that I think people think of.
KAYLA: Yes. However, I think parental and familial love is a very interesting and complicated case of unconditional love, because I think toxic family members often weaponize unconditional love. As, yeah, I wasn't the best parent, or I fucked up in this way, but oh, we're family, so you have to love me.
SARAH: Right. I also think it can get dangerous, because I feel like so many people who view familial love, especially from parent to child, as it's always unconditional. You have to love your kid no matter what. First of all, there are a lot of people that may say that, and then they don't act like that.
KAYLA: Sure
SARAH: So, there's that. But I think it really oftentimes relies upon like a bloodline of being blood-related to someone.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And I think that is harmful in both directions, in the sense that just because you're blood-related to someone, you have to stand by them no matter what they do, or you have to love them no matter. They could have killed 20 people, and you're like, well, we share blood, what am I gonna do?
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And then on the other hand, it gets into a situation where if you feel unconditional love towards someone who is not blood-related to you, people will not take that as seriously as someone who is.
KAYLA: Yeah. Do you think unconditional love is controllable? Can a person choose to have unconditional love for someone, or does it just happen to you?
SARAH: I don't think it's controllable. I think it goes back to what Wikipedia was saying about unconditional dedication versus unconditional love, which is like you can't control whether you love someone unconditionally or not. You can control how you act as a reaction to that, but that doesn't change how you feel.
KAYLA: Yeah. It makes me think of something that happened years ago between me and a family member. I want to preface this by saying everything is fine. And like no one would be like, she's in a toxic situation. It's fine.
SARAH: It’s fine
KAYLA: But I had a family member do something that I was very not pleased with, and logically, I was like, in this situation, this sometimes breaks up these relationships. Like it's over. And that's how I always assumed I would act in some kind of bad situation with a family member. But I found myself being like, well, I really still love this person. I'm really upset by what happened, but I can't help that I want to work things out or want to give them the benefit of the doubt or whatever. It was a very interesting situation where I did not act in a way that I assumed I would, especially because I am someone that's like, you don't have to give unconditional love to your family. I don't think that's a necessity the way I think mainstream people maybe think. So, it was just, I don't know. This is interesting.
SARAH: Yeah. I mean it's in the same way that you can't control the attractions you feel. You can't control the love you feel. And sometimes, it's like you know better. You see people all the time who are like getting back with an ex, and it’s like they know better, they absolutely know better, but they can't stop themselves. There's only so much you can do.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Do you think that truly unconditional love actually exists?
KAYLA: I don't know. This is something I was trying to think about earlier. I mean, I just don't know because you hear all these crazy stories of like, this man is a serial killer and his parents stand by him the entire time.
SARAH: It’s so… I think the one thing that you really see is the parent-child unconditional love, specifically the mother-child if the mother gave birth to the child.
KAYLA: Yeah. That is the one I can understand the most.
SARAH: Me too
KAYLA: That is the one I'm like, alright, that's fine. Because that is… That's a bond that I'm not a mother. I don't understand what that feels like. But I can understand, you carry this child, you raise this child.
SARAH: Yeah, that's what I was thinking, it’s like I… To some extent, I cannot relate and I will never be able to because I am not a parent.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And so, I do not know what that feels like. But at the same time, I'm just… it's interesting not to get downer on this.
KAYLA: Uh oh
SARAH: It's interesting looking at the parents of like school shooters. And seeing how they react. Because the mother of one of the Columbine shooters to this day is still advocating for gun control and mental health stuff for kids. Maybe she does still love her son unconditionally, but she's not going to make excuses for what he did.
KAYLA: Right. I mean, I think there is a way to love someone unconditionally and still understand that they did something wrong. It's again the difference between the feeling and the actions. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if she still loved her son. That's her kid.
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: But that doesn't mean that you think everything that they do is perfect. I don't think that anyone I love is the perfect person and has never done anything wrong, you know?
SARAH: Yeah. And then on the other hand, you have parents of these school shooters. I'm thinking of the Oxford shooter in Michigan. It was the first situation where his parents were charged with basically enabling him to commit this. And some people might look at that and say like, oh, they love him unconditionally, they're supporting him, they’re whatever… And it’s like, no, they were blindly… they were letting him get away with anything. They bought him guns.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And I think there is a line between loving someone unconditionally and enabling them. And just letting them do whatever.
KAYLA: Yeah
[00:20:00]
SARAH: And so many people don't see that line or cannot find it in themselves to draw the line themselves and say you may not cross this line.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I will still love you, but there are certain things I will not do past a certain point.
KAYLA: Yeah. I think it's just people assume that if you have unconditional love for someone that that will always impact your behavior. Automatically, if you unconditionally love someone, you're going to let them get away with anything. They can do whatever to you.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: I mean, I think, that's sometimes the case, but I don't think that the behavior and the feeling is always going to map exactly.
SARAH: Yeah. I think you cannot control the feeling but you can control your behavior and how you react to it.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Whether that is in a positive way or a negative way.
KAYLA: Yeah. And not that it's easy.
SARAH: No. No, no
KAYLA: If you love someone that much, it's not like it's going to be easy to go against them or break up with them or whatever. But…
SARAH: It's like people whose loved ones have committed crimes and they turn them in.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And like sometimes they'll be like, I still love you, and the person's like, no you fucking don't, you turned me in. But it’s like, they have their own moral code that they have to follow.
KAYLA: Well, it's also maybe the case of I love you so much that I want you to get better. Get rehabilitated. You're in a dangerous...
SARAH: I want to get you help. Yeah
KAYLA: Right. Again, the different ways of defining love. To that person it might be, if you loved me, you would do whatever I want and to the other person that is not what love is.
SARAH: First person sounds like a narcissist to me.
KAYLA: Eeee. Uh oh.
SARAH: You know how sometimes you hear about stories of people who are together maybe they're married in a romantic way. Together in a romantic way. Also married in a romantic way but that's kind of… usually.
KAYLA: Sure. I mean, okay. Shouldn't always be.
SARAH: Shouldn't always be. Sometimes if they have a somewhat amicable breakup or divorce, you'll hear them say like, I'll always love them or I'll always hold love for them.
KAYLA: Yeah. Mm-hmm
SARAH: Do you think that is unconditional love or is that just looking fondly upon memories you had with this person or looking fondly upon who you were when you were with this person?
KAYLA: That's a good question.
SARAH: Because clearly you broke up for a reason. Right?
KAYLA: Yeah. Those situations often make me feel like they broke up for more practical reasons than feeling reasons.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Like wanting different things long term or having different goals or one person wants kids and the other doesn't.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: Because to me it often feels like the messiest marriages come from more feelings or one person wronging the other.
SARAH: That's fair. I think you don't often see people with huge messy divorces where they're like I'll always love you. Sometimes people feel that way about their first love but I think that's more of a nostalgic thing.
KAYLA: Yeah, I would say my first love, I do not still love him because I do not know him. I don't know this man anymore.
SARAH: Super fair
KAYLA: I don't know him. But I think there is a huge level of nostalgia. When I think back on that relationship, I feel it in my chest. I'm like oh my god I was such a little baby, that was such a time and place. But I wouldn't say that's an unconditional love, I don't fucking know that man.
SARAH: Yeah, that's very fair.
KAYLA: Do you think unconditional love is a bad thing?
SARAH: I think it can be.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I think if it leads people to behave irrationally or it leads people to behave in a way that hurts other people in service of supposedly helping this person that they unconditionally love and those other people don't deserve the hurt that they receive, I think that can definitely be a problem. Again, the actual love itself is not the problem. The problem is how people react to it.
KAYLA: Yeah. I think the big problem is then when people use the love as the excuse for why… what happens is okay. And then… It feels like sometimes people are like, oh yeah, makes sense, great. Sorry I asked.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: I love your romantic love.
SARAH: There's a whole section on this Wikipedia page about unconditional love from a religious perspective.
KAYLA: Mm. Yeah, you're supposed to have that, for Jesus?
SARAH: Yes. But also… Oh, here is the thing…
KAYLA: Oh, but he has it for me too.
SARAH: He has it for you. And I think the thing…
KAYLA: And he died for my sins.
SARAH: I can really only speak to the Christian's perspective because I don't know enough about other religions.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Or I guess the Abrahamic religion perspective because it's all the same God. Which is that yes, you're supposed to have unconditional love for God, but God also supposedly never does anything wrong. So, there is no condition that needs to be met. There is nothing that he could do to make you not love him.
KAYLA: I also think it’s that…
SARAH: By the logic of the church.
KAYLA: Yeah. To me, the love thy neighbor vibe also kind of… I feel like we're supposed to unconditionally love everyone according to Jesus.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: It's supposed to be like, yeah, they could be a shitty person but you still need to hold love in your heart for them as a human to human. Which I understand.
SARAH: I think that's just another way of saying view human beings as human beings and treat them as such no matter what they've done.
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: You don't have to love a mass murderer to think that the death penalty is wrong. You know?
KAYLA: Yeah, that's fair. Yes, understanding that. Having some level of empathy that everyone is a conscious human.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Oh, that’s fair
SARAH: But I think the idea that oh, we are children of God. God loves you unconditionally. First of all, I'm like God, that might be a little problematic of you.
KAYLA: Well, that kind of fuses me. Well, I guess, never mind. I was going to say if he loves me unconditionally, why is he sending me to hell? But as we talked about he can still love me unconditionally and be like what this person needs…
SARAH: Is hell.
KAYLA: Themselves is hell. And I can still love them.
SARAH: But hell is not going to fix you. Hell is eternal. The point of hell is not to fix you. Because there's no thing… there's no step up.
KAYLA: I think hell, like prison, should be more rehabilitation-focused.
SARAH: You know what?
KAYLA: I think you should be able to work your way up from hell.
SARAH: We need to work on our prison industrial, our hell industrial complex.
KAYLA: Uh huh. Complex, yeah. Why is God making a profit off of hell is my question.
SARAH: Or after life. Yeah, I, that's getting into a whole thing about the purpose of religion and what…
KAYLA: I also sorry this is a whole thing you're telling me I live on earth for a hundred years and I fuck up a little bit, and that's it. Hitler, he can rot in hell forever.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: But say I'm like gay or whatever and I have to suffer. I was gay for a hundred years now I have to suffer for eternity?
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: That's not fair.
SARAH: And it's like what if your little cubicle of hell is next to fucking Mussolini like.
KAYLA: Hitler. Yeah, that sucks that's not equal. I should have a better… I guess there are the circles of hell, I guess I don't…
SARAH: I guess
KAYLA: I don't know if that's like… I don't know if that's Christian though.
SARAH: I was gonna say like do all sects of Christianity actually believe in that? Because like what if I’m…
KAYLA: I don't know whether any of them do.
SARAH: What if on one side of you, you have Hitler and then in front of you you have Margaret Thatcher and then next to you you have Genghis Khan and then behind you you have I don't know fucking Bin Laden like I would… I would be sitting there like…
KAYLA: I'm just gay.
SARAH: I don't think I'm quite as bad as some of these people.
KAYLA: Yeah. I agree.
SARAH: But then I would also look at some of them and be like I don't support what you did but I understand why you did it and then it's like, well, here we're in a pickle now, aren't we?
KAYLA: I just think there should be a rehabilitation program in hell. Do I think some people are gonna have to be in the program for millions of years to rehab? Sure. I don't think Hitler's gonna get nice in a day.
SARAH: No. No, no
KAYLA: But like…
SARAH: He needs to fundamentally fix something about him.
KAYLA: Yeah, there's a lot. He needs to go to art school.
SARAH: He needs to go to art school. Step one.
KAYLA: He needs to get into art school and then I think that would honestly fix him. Just kidding. That's crazy.
SARAH: I keep thinking of like, oh, who do I think could not be rehabilitated but the people I'm thinking of are all alive. So.
KAYLA: Okay and? Go on.
SARAH: Well, they're not dead yet.
KAYLA: Okay, but I still want to know
SARAH: So, in theory they could be rehabilitated in this life.
KAYLA: Okay so they die right now. They're dead. Who is it?
SARAH: Well, the first person I thought of was fucking Benjamin Netanyahu, I was like that mother fucker is a piece of shit.
KAYLA: That's fair.
SARAH: The next one I thought of just now was Scooter Braun. So those are the two genders.
KAYLA: Equal. Equal. Jesus Christ.
SARAH: Anyway. But then also there are people who, not to get into a whole side conversation about hell.
KAYLA: Okay. No, we're here though.
SARAH: We're here. There are like Barack Obama heaven or hell. Tell me right now.
[00:30:00]
KAYLA: You know I was actually thinking about Barack Obama earlier today. Because there's a picture of him from when he was law school hanging in the copy room in my office. And it's really crooked. I don't know why they did Barack like that. Like someone has got to fix it.
SARAH: Oh man
KAYLA: Anyway. I was thinking about it because often people are like, oh, you love Obama so much but this policy and this policy and I'm like well, I was nine.
SARAH: He bombed Syria.
KAYLA: When I was nine so I didn't know.
SARAH: I didn't vote for him, I couldn't.
KAYLA: But that's the thing is like yeah, I don't know. Like if I really looked into his policies and everything he did. Yeah, he's probably a piece of shit. But I like his vibe and his wife. So, I don't know.
SARAH: And if you look at like specifically like historical U.S. figures every U.S. president piece of shit in their own special way.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And so, people are like oh my God like George Washington did amazing things for fucking democracy and democracy has done such amazing things. Yeah, he was a slave owner too.
KAYLA: That’s the thing, is…
SARAH: Like, you have to hold those two things at the same time.
KAYLA: I do think you have to be a legitimate psychopath to be the president of the United States.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: I don't think any normal…
SARAH: No normal person wants to be president.
KAYLA: No normal person wants that level of responsibility and to make decisions that could murder billions of people.
SARAH: I've… I've heard that some kind of speculation that that might be part of the appeal of Tim Waltz. Because…
KAYLA: That he's not a psycho?
SARAH: No one looks at him and is like he wants… he's there because he wants to be president.
KAYLA: Oh, he's just there for the vibes?
SARAH: He's just there for the vibes. And like the fact that he was a teacher and his students encouraged him to run for office and that's why he ran for office and like that sort of thing. Like he doesn't come across as someone who's like super…
KAYLA: Like a career politician.
SARAH: Right. And I was also hearing about how like Kamala has actually… the fact that Kamala was kind of thrust into this race also was probably helping her because a woman who was too ambitious like Hillary Clinton people will read that as bad. Whereas a man they'd be like yeah ambition whereas it's a woman they're like fuck you you're a bitch. And so that might… might be benefiting her to some extent.
KAYLA: I understand a child wanting to be president because they don't know what the fuck they're talking about.
SARAH: They don't know any better.
KAYLA: 14 and up, you want to be president legitimately, I don't want to talk to you.
SARAH: You cannot take a vacation day.
KAYLA: You have the nuclear button following you at all times. You want that?
SARAH: Because even if like oh technically you're on vacation, you're at your mother's funeral, you're doing whatever if someone fucking bombs Idaho
KAYLA: You have to go.
SARAH: You have to go.
KAYLA: I was about to be like, oh, you're reading a book to a room of school children, too bad, they just bombed 9-11.
SARAH: They just hit the second tower.
KAYLA: It's not funny.
SARAH: No
KAYLA: It's not funny.
SARAH: I'm not even kidding when I was coming up with that example the first thing I thought of was bombing Pearl Harbor and I was like let's make up something that hasn't happened. And so, then I said bombing Idaho and then my next thought when I was like, oh, you have to leave… I was like, mh, reading a book to school children.
KAYLA: Shh.
SARAH: If there's one thing Americans love it's joking about 9-11.
KAYLA: Here's the thing.
SARAH: 9-11, sometimes forget.
KAYLA: I just think it's… I don't want to say it's funny because it's not, it's just like…
SARAH: It's how we cope.
KAYLA: Sometimes you have to be coping.
SARAH: I've seen some discourse recently of like people from other countries like being… I think I maybe mentioned this on the podcast being like, well, Americans joking about this is like if we joked about 9-11 and it's like, yeah, we do… we do it all the time.
KAYLA: Yeah, come on over.
SARAH: Like it's an American pastime.
KAYLA: I saw a cat tree
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: That was called…
SARAH: I did too
KAYLA: New York… it was like New York style cat tree and it was the carpet of it was like the you know the play mat with where you drive your cars and it was two towers.
SARAH: And it was two towers. And there was a plane toy on one of them. Wasn’t there?
KAYLA: Who did that? There was some kind of toy at the top. I would not be surprised if it was a plane. Who… Which one of you did that?
SARAH: You know the person on the internet who explains historical events to their cat using their toys?
KAYLA: No.
SARAH: Oh my God, you don't know this person?
KAYLA: No.
SARAH: It's really fun. They use the cat's toys and household objects to explain historical events to their children, to their children, to their cat.
KAYLA: The same thing
SARAH: Their child cat. And so, like the fun thing is you try and guess what it is before the end.
KAYLA: Okay. Yeah
SARAH: And usually, I can guess like there was one that was like the Irish Potato Famine and so like they did… they gave them potatoes and then the cat went to eat them and they took the potatoes away.
KAYLA: Oh no. Oh no
SARAH: And like they've done like the assassination of JFK, they've done 9-11. I saw one recently and I should have known, I should have known as soon as I saw it. They had a pan and they put the cat toy in the pan and the cat toy was a dreidel and I was like perhaps this is just a coincidence. Perhaps this is just a toy that they have. And then they opened the oven…
KAYLA: No, that’s not fair, I don’t know if I can…
SARAH: And they put it in with the cat toy and I was like…
KAYLA: I don't know that I can go along with that one, I got to be honest.
SARAH: I mean it's funny because it's absurd.
KAYLA: I mean if that person is Jewish, I'll allow it but I don't know that we can do that.
SARAH: So, it's fine for 9-11 but it's not fine for the Holocaust?
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: Where's the line?
KAYLA: I think it's pretty clear.
SARAH: I think they're both fine.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: I think they're both fine.
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: That was one though that I did not get it in advance and so then when it was like I was like oh it did, it did…
KAYLA: What were the comments like on that?
SARAH: The comments are always delightful on those actually.
KAYLA: Great. Perfect.
SARAH: But this person was just explaining to their cat in a way that their cat would understand. It's important to have historical knowledge. Okay?
KAYLA: Yeah, their cat definitely understood that.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Anyway.
KAYLA: This episode really has gone somewhere huh?
SARAH: This episode was about unconditional love.
KAYLA: In case anyone's wondering. Sarah would you still love me if I murdered someone?
SARAH: Depends on why.
KAYLA: They were mean to me.
SARAH: Define mean.
KAYLA: They said I was ugly. And so, I killed them.
SARAH: And that was their only sin?
KAYLA: They said it in like a really mean way. And the thing is that like they were ugly.
SARAH: And so, you just killed them?
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: How'd you kill them? I don't think it would really matter. I'd be quite mad at you either way but just for the purpose of the story.
KAYLA: Envelope opener.
SARAH: That's a painful death. You'd have to like really really stab them quite hard.
KAYLA: If you got right in the heart or the jugular, I think it could be.
SARAH: Okay. This. I'm holding up a letter opener right now.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: In the student film I made in college. Remember she kills him with a letter opener?
KAYLA: Oh yeah.
SARAH: But the whole point of the film is that it's unclear if he's real or not. Spoiler there's nowhere you can watch the film. It doesn't matter. It's on IMDB though.
KAYLA: Hell yeah.
SARAH: But to successful… like this is pretty blunt dude. I am holding in my hand a letter opener that is shaped like a sword.
KAYLA: Okay but do you think... Okay my murder of the person that called me ugly aside. Do you think life or death situation, someone's coming at you all you have is a letter opener, you don't think you could do some damage?
SARAH: Yeah, you make the most of it but like I wouldn't… I wouldn't say it…
KAYLA: So, you're supposed to do.
SARAH: Correct. But going for the eyeball is not what's going to kill them. It will incapacitate them to a certain extent so that you can continue to do more things that make them die.
KAYLA: Much to consider.
SARAH: Anyway, yeah, I'd be pretty mad if you just killed someone because you… because they said you were ugly. Like I would...
KAYLA: Okay, what if I what if it was a good reason for the murder?
SARAH: Like what kind of reason?
KAYLA: They were about to murder you and so then I murdered them first.
SARAH: I would not have any problem with that.
KAYLA: Okay. I'll keep that in mind.
SARAH: If… you mean if they were going to murder me and so you murdered them instead of… to stop them from murdering me or you murdered them to stop them from murdering you? Either way I think it's fine.
KAYLA: Both. Both.
SARAH: It's fine.
KAYLA: Okay good to know. Sarah approves this murder. You heard it here first.
SARAH: My favorite murder. Well, is that even count as murder? Doesn't murder have to be premeditated?
KAYLA: There's murder one and murder two.
SARAH: But I guess it was intention. It wouldn't be manslaughter because you did try and kill them.
KAYLA: Yeah. I mean that's the difference between…
SARAH: So, yeah that's still murder. It's murder two. Secondary.
KAYLA: Yes. Yeah
SARAH: In the American law situation.
KAYLA: And then manslaughter is like oopsie.
SARAH: Oops. Didn't mean it.
KAYLA: Didn't mean it. But also like if you did it in self-defense, I think usually it's fine.
SARAH: Right. If it was self-defense even if it is murder in the second degree that's fine. Murder in the first degree you're still going to get in trouble for.
KAYLA: I mean you would also get in trouble say I heard someone being like I'm going to murder Sarah next week and instead of going to the police I just murdered them, I don't think I'd get away with that.
SARAH: No, you wouldn't. You would not, that does not count as enough of a threat.
KAYLA: They don't like vigilantism out there.
SARAH: Yeah, you need to have like not just evidence that it's going to happen but it needs to be imminently about to happen for that to be…
KAYLA: Yeah, in front of you.
[00:40:00]
SARAH: Yeah. But also, you can commit manslaughter and still be found criminally liable for it even if you didn't mean to do it.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: Depending on the situation.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: Man's laughter. Um so Kayla what's our poll for this week?
KAYLA: Yeah man. Um...
SARAH: Do you still love us unconditionally after this train wreck of an episode?
KAYLA: After this episode. And the thing is like we came in with a good topic.
SARAH: We did and...
KAYLA: It's not like we came in with bullshit.
SARAH: How did we end up here? I think it was my fault. What did I do?
KAYLA: I would... I'll go with that. I don't know what you did.
SARAH: There was a moment where I was like, not to make it about this and then I did.
KAYLA: Well, we started talking...
SARAH: Whatever that moment was.
KAYLA: I know what it was. We were talking about how Jesus loves us unconditionally and then we were talking about Jesus sending us to Hell. And then you were like, well, not to keep us on the track of hell and then...
SARAH: Right. I'm actually going to briefly go back to I think that God loving people unconditionally is in the exact same bucket as like parents and children because that's how you're supposed to view it. Is that like you are a child of God at least in Christianity and Abrahamic religions. So, I think like people are like oh well there's this religious meaning and then there's like the familial meaning it's like, no, I think in that situation they're actually the same thing.
KAYLA: Well, that makes sense.
SARAH: Anyway, what is our poll for this week?
KAYLA: Do you think unconditional love exists?
SARAH: That's a good question.
KAYLA: Yes or no.
SARAH: Yes or no. Because part of me is like, well, you can acquire unconditional love but then here's a question. Here's a question. So, you can identify as aspec and then sexuality's identity is fluid and your identity changes and you may no longer identify as aspec, that doesn't mean that you weren't aspec when you identified as aspec right?
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: If you consider yourself to love someone unconditionally
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: Is that immutable? Like can you in five years decide you no longer love them unconditionally but that five years ago you still considered that to be unconditional love or is the fact that now you no longer love them unconditionally is that the condition? That was always like lurking, you know?
KAYLA: That's an interesting question. Yeah. I think it would still mean you loved them unconditionally at that point. It's just that you don't now
SARAH: Is unconditional love fluid?
KAYLA: That's a good question though because clearly there was a condition. It just had not happened yet. So, it wasn't unconditional you just didn't know about it.
SARAH: And I don't think that unconditional love has to be a parent to child love at first sight thing. Because outside of the context of parents and children I think it is very unlikely that you will be like, oh, I love this person unconditionally, I met them 30 seconds ago.
KAYLA: Sure.
SARAH: And so, like if it's something that can be acquired, can you also unacquire it?
KAYLA: I mean that is a good question. Does having unconditional love for someone also mean that you will love them forever?
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: Because if you stop loving them clearly it wasn't unconditional.
SARAH: I think people view unconditional as being equivalent to forever.
KAYLA: Yeah, I think you might be right.
SARAH: But must it be?
KAYLA: Yeah, I don't know. That’s the question
SARAH: You know what? We end it strong.
KAYLA: Yeah, we brought it back.
SARAH: We were real rough from about the 60% to the 95% of the way through.
KAYLA: You doubted us but we did it.
SARAH: Here we are. Anyway
KAYLA: No one is listening still. No one's here. They've all left.
SARAH: My mom is still here.
KAYLA: Julie get out of here. You shouldn't have to listen to this.
SARAH: Julie loves me. Julie's still here.
KAYLA: Julie loves you unconditionally and that is why she's still here.
SARAH: I actually don't know if my mom has been consistently listening to the podcast recently, she’s been…
KAYLA: Oh, so she doesn't love you?
SARAH: She has been very busy.
KAYLA: Oh Julie.
SARAH: Dealing with other family things.
KAYLA: Tea.
SARAH: Anyway. You can all… No. What's your beef? Juice?
KAYLA: Oh brother. Let me think. My beef is the technology in my house.
SARAH: Mm
KAYLA: My internet. Oh, that's my foot. My internet is still bad in my office which is the place that you really need it to be good.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And also, today the breaker for our living room outlets just decided to keep flipping. Nothing had changed. We hadn't plugged anything new in. I don't think we have too much plugged in for a living room. I think it's a pretty standard amount.
SARAH: Did you ask your landlord?
KAYLA: Yeah, but I texted him it was like 9:30 or something when I texted him. So, he has not texted me back. But I'm afraid they're going to come in and be like, well, you have too much stuff plugged in. But I think we have a perfectly adequate amount of things plugged in.
SARAH: Yeah. Weird.
KAYLA: So anyway, that's annoying.
SARAH: Weird.
KAYLA: My juice is my couch finally arrived.
SARAH: Couch
KAYLA: It was delayed and then it came, it came while I was at work, so, I arrived home to a new couch.
SARAH: Was it already in place? Was it ready for sitting?
KAYLA: It was. The people we got like they did free white-glove deliveries. The people came and they set it up and then they took away the garbage and they left.
SARAH: Nice. What a delight.
KAYLA: Yeah, but now I have to… now I've been like waiting for the couch to figure out where I want to put other things.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: So, I've got myself all in a tizzy about what extra chairs to buy and where to put the things on the walls, you know?
SARAH: Indeed.
KAYLA: Indeed.
SARAH: My beef is that I accidentally retrained my sleep schedule to wake me up like way later than I need to wake up on a daily basis.
KAYLA: I'm shocked. I can't… I couldn't have foreseen.
SARAH: This morning I… well, last night I even like brushed my teeth and washed my face and I was… I like got into bed on purpose
KAYLA: Wow
SARAH: But then I was playing games on my phone.
KAYLA: Are you playing the cake game?
SARAH: I may have been I don't even remember.
KAYLA: Sarah introduced me to a new phone game which is wild because…
SARAH: Have you been playing it?
KAYLA: Yeah. It makes my phone so hot.
SARAH: Really?
KAYLA: It makes my phone so hot and lose so much battery so fast. And also, there are so many ads. Hello.
SARAH: I’m sorry. Yeah.
KAYLA: But it's wild because…
SARAH: Here's what I do...
KAYLA: Remember when you used to not… You used to not play phone games. You put your phone in airplane mode because I did that the other day.
SARAH: Does that work for ads?
KAYLA: Yeah, but you have to like no Wi-Fi, no data.
SARAH: Wow.
KAYLA: So, you can't do anything else on your phone but you can play the game.
SARAH: What I've been doing is I have been doing it like when I'm also doing other things and whenever there's an ad, I put my phone down and I go back to doing the thing and then I pick it back up and the ad is done.
KAYLA: That's good of you.
SARAH: Well, the reason that I didn't have phone games was because I had had like games on my iPod touch when I was younger and I was like addicted to them.
KAYLA: Yeah, fair. You know Flappy Bird is coming back?
SARAH: I never played Flappy Bird.
KAYLA: I don't think I ever had it on my phone. I played it somehow.
SARAH: I mean like I played it like twice. I played it at that arcade and it was really bad.
KAYLA: Oops…
SARAH: You were there.
KAYLA: Pinball Pete's?
SARAH: No.
KAYLA: Oh, in my home?
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: The one that broke?
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I was a real Fruit Ninja and Temple Run girly. And then of course Angry Birds.
KAYLA: I was a Jetpack Joyride girly. You know that one? That was a good one.
SARAH: I never played it. And now I'm like, ugh, should I redownload temple run?
KAYLA: I have redownloaded it a couple of times and I don't know it just didn't…
SARAH: It doesn't do it for you anymore?
KAYLA: No, I don't know.
SARAH: Interesting. Anyway, my beef? Oh, I… so, I even went to bed on purpose but I was so… no, I didn't go to bed on purpose. No, not last night. Last night I did not go to bed on purpose. And I knew better. I was like I need to do all these things otherwise I'm gonna fall asleep right here. And then I did. My phone is set so that it always alarms me at 6:45 in the morning if I'm wearing my watch. But the problem is that it only goes off once and all of my other alarms I have to set manually and it takes 500 alarms to wake me up.
KAYLA: It does. I recall.
SARAH: So, if I don't set all of those alarms, I do technically have one alarm going off. But that's not enough. And so, this morning that alarm was not enough and then my… I didn't have anything else going off. And my body said, oh, it's time to wake up, at 8:10.
KAYLA: Oop, a different time.
SARAH: I'm supposed to be at work at 9. It takes half an hour to get there.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: It's because I keep being somewhat late for work and being like, oh, my boss isn't there right now. It's okay. I always end up fucking working through lunch anyway so it's like, you know, it evens out but then I keep just like end up being late in the morning but then my body has gotten too used to that. And now it can't wake up when it actually needs to.
KAYLA: That is tough.
SARAH: So. Brutal. My juice is I got a tattoo I can talk about my tattoo now.
KAYLA: Thank God.
[00:50:00]
SARAH: So, it's a sword
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: At the base of the hilt of the sword, like the thing that you hold onto, right? There's the cross between what you hold onto and the blade, okay. And in the middle of that blade, I specifically asked my guy T to… there's a circle and it's inside of a square.
KAYLA: Okay.
SARAH: Okay? And that is technically…
KAYLA: I'm going to look back at the picture you sent me.
SARAH: It is technically a BTS reference but it is so subtle that no one would ever know if I didn't tell them.
KAYLA: But what does it mean?
SARAH: I'm about to tell you, Jesus Christ.
KAYLA: I am impatient
SARAH: It is in reference
KAYLA: Oh, I see.
SARAH: Yeah. It is in reference to a BTS song where the lyric… I have to explain the lyrics and also, I have to explain the Korean language for this to make sense. The lyric is talking about, speaking of our topic this week, the lyric is talking about turning a person into love. Like a person turns into love. And it's also a play on words because in Korean the word for person is saram, and the word for love is sarang.
KAYLA: Mm
SARAH: And the difference in those is that the M sound in saram is like a square. And the… sound in sarang is a circle. And so, part of the line is he says like, he talks about eroding your edges so that a person becomes love. And so, it's literal like eroding the edges of the letter so that the square becomes a circle, person becomes love.
KAYLA: Oh
SARAH: So, it's referencing that.
KAYLA: That's crazy.
SARAH: Yeah. And it takes a lot of explanation.
KAYLA: It does. But it just looks like a normal way a sword would be built.
SARAH: Exactly. That's why I was like no one, even a BTS fan would never look at this and think that without me telling them.
KAYLA: No, that’s just… Yeah, that's just a sword. Wow, poetry. That's crazy.
SARAH: It's just a little thing. You can tell us about your beef, your juice, your sword tattoos on our social media @soundsfakepod. We also have a Patreon, patreon.com/soundfakepod if you want to support us there. Our $5 patrons who we are promoting this week are Mary S., Mel McMeans, Melissa, Meredith, and Morgan Impink. Our $10 patrons who are promoting something this week are Alastor who would like to promote the podcast ‘Shadows and Shenanigans,’ Alyson who would like to promote the book Arden Gray by Ray Stoeve. Ani who would like to promote the importance of being kind to yourself and others, Arcnes who would like to promote The Trevor Project, and Benjamin Ybarra who would like to promote Tabletop Games. Our other $5 patrons… Nop, $10, $10 patrons are Bones, Celina Dobson, Clare Olsen, David Harris, Derick & Carissa, Elle Bitter, Kayla's dad, my Aunt Jeannie, Maff, Martin Chiesl, Parker, Phoenix Leodinh, Purple Hayes, Barefoot Backpacker, SongOStorm, and Val. Our $15 patrons are Ace who would like to promote The Invisible Spectrum podcast. What? Whoa. Ace would like to promote the writer Crystal Scherer
KAYLA: Uh-huh
SARAH: Andrew Hillum would like to promote The Invisible Spectrum podcast.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: Hector Murillo who would like to promote friends that are supportive, constructive, and help you grow as a better person, Nathaniel White who would like to promote NathanielJWhiteDesigns.com, Jesus Christ. Kayla’s Aunt Nina who would like to promote katemaggartart.com, Schnell who would like to promote everyone… accepting that everyone is different and that's awesome, I can't read. Our $20 patrons are Dragonfly, Dr. Jacki, my mom, and River. River said that they… she, they said they were a trans woman so I'm guessing she is probably a she but I don't actually know for sure. Shout out to you River. You’re a homie. But they were like, yeah, I don't really have anything I want to promote. I trust you. And I was like rookie mistake.
KAYLA: Don't do that.
SARAH: So, today our $20 patrons are, in addition to promoting Dr. Jacki being Dr. Jacki, they're also promoting your arm not falling asleep when you get a tattoo. So great.
KAYLA: Mine… yeah.
SARAH: Well, because my first one it was a problem.
KAYLA: Yeah. I feel like I also had that with arm tattoos.
SARAH: And so, I told him, I was like, that happened last time it may be an issue and then it turned out to not be. And also, I watched/listened to the entirety of the movie ‘Hot Fuzz’ while I was getting my tattoo done.
KAYLA: A good movie.
SARAH: A good film. Thanks for listening, tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.
KAYLA: And until then love your cows unconditionally.
SARAH: Or conditionally if you have to.
KAYLA: I guess.
[END OF TRANSCRIPT]
