Sounds Fake But Okay
Sounds Fake But Okay
Ep 347: Can Womanhood and Aspec Identities Coexist?
Hey what's up hello! This week we discuss how society's current conception of womanhood clashes with asexual and aromantic identities. Can gender and sexuality be separated? What does it mean to be a woman when you don't desire or want to be desired? All that and more (after 10 minutes of girlhood and yapping at the top of the episode of course).
Episode Transcript: www.soundsfakepod.com/transcripts/can-womanhood-and-aspec-identities-coexist
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SARAH: Hey, what's up? Hello. Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro-ace girl (I'm Sarah, that's me)
KAYLA: And a bi demisexual girl (That's me Kayla)
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality and pretty much anything else we just don't understand
KAYLA: On today's episode ‘Gender.’
BOTH: Sounds fake, but okay
SARAH: More like is fake, but okay. Am I right ladies? Welcome back to the pod
KAYLA: Happy Pride Month.
SARAH: Happy Pride
KAYLA: Shout out to the gays
SARAH: The gays and the…
KAYLA: I forget, is it like Connor Franta that clip is from?
SARAH: I don't even know
KAYLA: No
SARAH: I'm not sure
KAYLA: It's one of those like 2010s youtubers or something, when he's doing a live stream and he goes “happy pride month, shout out to the gays”
SARAH: That sounds… it's a little too flamboyant for Connor Franta but I could be wrong.
KAYLA: I'll send it to you. Maybe, if I remember. It's in there.
SARAH: I hope everyone had a nice week off, relaxing. Good and fun.
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: We're back and we're back with a vengeance
KAYLA: We're so back, my life is better now
SARAH: I love that for you
KAYLA: Graduation happened and now it is over.
SARAH: I had really big dreams last week on our podcast recording day
KAYLA: Mm
SARAH: I was like, “I'm going to get home from work. I'm going to cook my pork. I'm going to eat my dinner at a reasonable time. I'm going to work on my writing.”
KAYLA: Huge
SARAH: Okay, well, do you want to know what I did?
KAYLA: I think you probably fell asleep with the lights on
SARAH: I sat on my phone and I sat on my phone and I sat on my phone and I sat… I kept doing that
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And then at about 11:45 p.m. I had cereal for dinner
KAYLA: Did you put yourself to bed though?
SARAH: Probably not
KAYLA: Well, hey you can't win them all
SARAH: I've been doing this thing recently where I'm like, oh like, okay like I’ve finished my dinner, but I still have a little bit of cherry coke left. So, I'm like, okay I'm going to go sit on my bed and finish my cherry coke and then once I finish my cherry coke I’ll like brush teeth
KAYLA: Nooo, why would you ever think that?
SARAH: Yeah, every…
KAYLA: It never works out
SARAH: Every time I fail. And every time I'm like, “this is a bad idea.”
KAYLA: Ugh, Sarah
SARAH: Hey, last night I went to bed on purpose, I'm very brave
KAYLA: Wow
SARAH: Anyway. Hi.
KAYLA: Hi
SARAH: Do we have any housekeeping?
KAYLA: I don't think so.
SARAH: We'll be taking summer break in a couple weeks, but not yet
KAYLA: This is true.
SARAH: We haven't actually discussed it, but…
KAYLA: We haven't. It's going to be perfect though because usually we take it in July and I'm taking a class this summer and it's like basically just for July
SARAH: Tea
KAYLA: And guess the hours of this class
SARAH: 9 to 5
KAYLA: No, imagine, it's 6:30 to 9:30 p.m. Two nights a week.
SARAH: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Kayla, I was a film major, do you remember when my classes were?
KAYLA: Yeah, but your job was going to school, I'm not… the time of the day is not the issue. Like I'm taking night classes because I work
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: It's the six hours a week that's the fucking problem
SARAH: Well, it's only for a month, that's what you get when it’s only for a month
KAYLA: I know, that's why it’s like that. Why don't you just let me be annoyed?
SARAH: I support you in your annoyedness.
KAYLA: Thank you and during pride month, can you guys believe this?
SARAH: I know. Oh my God, my friend to me the other day told me that she thinks my Seventeen bias is straight. And I…
KAYLA: And during pride month? That’s fucked up
SARAH: During pride month. And I will remind all of you that my Seventeen bias is my biological son, okay?
KAYLA: Right. So, there's no way he could be straight
SARAH: And so that’s offensive to me and my bloodline
KAYLA: Yeah, that's fucked up
SARAH: I'm still thinking about it, she's just wrong
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Because one of the other members of the group famously imitates this member in a manner that is literally just a gay stereotype so like I'm sorry, you think that's a straight man? Anyway, okay.
KAYLA: Um…
SARAH: It's really scary that there's statistically at least some K-pop idols are straight, that's really scary to me
KAYLA: Yeah, that is stressful.
SARAH: Anyway, let's do the podcast.
KAYLA: Wait, wait, one last thing.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Okay, so, you know how there's the thing during Valentine's Day where girls are like, “Oh, my boyfriend hasn't even asked me to be his Valentine yet,” you know?
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And then it turned into a meme where people are like, “ugh, my boyfriend didn't ask me to be his egg for Easter,’ or like, “He didn't ask me to be his leprechaun for...”
SARAH: I haven't seen this meme and I think it's because I don't associate with allos
KAYLA: That's fair, but it's funny because it's like what do you mean you're his egg for Easter?
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: So, I was asking Dean what is it for pride month like, “oh, it's pride month my boyfriend hasn't even asked me to be his…”
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: I've received some ideas from other people, but I want to hear what you have, what do you think?
SARAH: I don't know what it says about me but the very first thing I thought of was strap-on, I don't know why
KAYLA: Some of the suggestions I got were, “and my boyfriend hasn't even asked me to peg him.” So, I think that’s close
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: I received, twink, was a couple people said that
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: And some other words that I don't feel comfortable saying
SARAH: Okay
KAYLA: Yeah, peg, strap
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Amazing
KAYLA: So, if anyone has any thoughts... Oh, “he hasn't asked me to be his leather daddy”
SARAH: Ooh. Ooh
KAYLA: That's a good one I think
SARAH: That's good, that one is really excellent
KAYLA: So, yeah give me your submissions for what you think the meme would be
SARAH: Last week my boss texted me and my co-worker, he wasn't at work but he texted me and my co-worker and was like, “hey, you might want to leave a little bit early today because we hope pride starts tonight.”
KAYLA: Uh
SARAH: And I was like, “why are you telling me this? What? I'm sorry. You're a 66-year-old white Jewish man.”
KAYLA: Yeah, just heralding…
SARAH: Cishets can be very cishet, aggressively so.
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: And you're telling… you're the one who has been like, “hey, we hope pride starts soon.”
KAYLA: We hope pride… It's coming. Maybe all the straights have like a newsletter that they're like batten down the gays.
SARAH: He does go to Fire Island every year.
KAYLA: Oh. Why?
SARAH: Because he and his wife are friends with a gay couple that live on Fire Island, I don't know if they live on Fire Island, but they always go there.
KAYLA: That is crazy. That's actually crazy to hear given everything
SARAH: We think one time someone who he didn't know well like really kind of like unloaded their recent sexuality crisis on him and…
KAYLA: No
SARAH: And we think it's because he had mentioned but he was going to Fire Island
KAYLA: Oh
SARAH: And so, they assumed… and also, because he does shit like refer to his wife as his partner
KAYLA: Ah, yeah, that’s tough
SARAH: And so, I think they thought he was a gay man and he's not
KAYLA: He is certainly not
SARAH: Anyway
KAYLA: Well, hey, there you go
SARAH: Kayla, what are we talking about this week this week?
KAYLA: This week we are talking about gender
SARAH: Aren't we always?
KAYLA: Yeah, this is like I… we've talked about gender as it relates to aspec identities I think a lot like in passing like every…
SARAH: Noooo
KAYLA: There's a creature
SARAH: You can climb up there, but you cannot be sticking your claws in it
KAYLA: Oh. Motheeeeeer
SARAH: Motheeeeeeer, I crave violence.
KAYLA: She's so long, so long
SARAH: I was telling my friend the other day, I was like, “she bites me,” and she was like, “oh well, my cat bites me, but she gets like petting aggression,” and I was like, “no, no, no. No, she bites me unprovoked.”
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And then she witnessed it happen and I was like, “just like this?” and she said, “I understand, we're not the same.” Continue.
KAYLA: Okay. Anyway.
SARAH: Sorry, this is what happens when we take a week off.
KAYLA: Yeah, we don't know what to do. Sorry, my foot hurts because my cat scratched it and I just was touching it.
SARAH: She's biting a nail file
KAYLA: My cats really like nail files, actually, I don't know if it's like the smell of the like, I don't know, they really like the smell of them
SARAH: Why do I have two nail files?
KAYLA: I don’t know queen. Okay.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Are you focusing?
SARAH: Yeah, I'm just taking a picture of my cat
KAYLA: Okay. Here we go.
SARAH: I’ve never been more focused in my life
KAYLA: Right. Okay, so we've talked about gender as it relates to aspec things like not on often on the podcast, you're not even… you’re looking at your phone
SARAH: I'm sorry. I can't… I was… her claw was right over… and I could like see her claw and I was like, “if only I had my nail clippers with me right now.’
KAYLA: You should have just started filing it
SARAH: I could… She would hate that more than anything.
KAYLA: Yeah
[00:10:00]
SARAH: She would claw my eyes
KAYLA: Yeah, that's fair
SARAH: Okay, I'm listening
KAYLA: Lock in. Okay, gender.
SARAH: Yeah, we all have one but at what cost?
KAYLA: Or do we?
SARAH: Great point
KAYLA: Right
SARAH: Sometimes our gender is not…
KAYLA: Right, exactly. Um, so we've talked about it, I don't think we've ever done like a dedicated episode
SARAH: It has definitely come up a lot, like when Kayla like mentioned this to me, I was like, “I have definitely talked about this topic in regards to my own journey with my gender a couple of times on this podcast, but we haven't talked about this particular topic for a whole episode.”
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: It would be helpful if we told you what the topic was, Kayla, what's the topic? I will stop interrupting you
KAYLA: Okay, in a nutshell my thesis coming into this or my like question coming into this was just like not actually an answer too, is, can womanhood as we, like as society views it today actually coexist with aspec identities, okay?
SARAH: Mmm, you didn't tell me that part.
KAYLA: I actually didn’t
SARAH: Have you thought about it more?
KAYLA: No, I said that to you
SARAH: Okay, well, here's the thing, Kayla sent me a voice memo and I had to read the transcript of it because our interns recently started and my intern was sitting… I have my thing over my keyboard and my cat still managed to stop my recording by stepping on my other keyboard on my actual computer
KAYLA: She's very talented
SARAH: No, here's the thing, you sent me a voice memo and I had to read the transcript of it because our interns have started this week and… no. And…stop distracting me
KAYLA: You need to kick her out I fear
SARAH: You're supposed to be Adderall, that’s supposed to help me with focusing
KAYLA: Oh, she's so wiggly
SARAH: Wow, we can do this. Interns have started so there was… it was her first day and she was sitting like 10 feet away from me and I was like, “I can't play this voice.”
KAYLA: Rude, I think she would have loved it
SARAH: So, I listened… I read the transcript and then I listened to it on my way home also but I was only kind of listening
KAYLA: Right, okay. Well, I'll do it again for the listeners, anyway. So, the reason I started thinking about this it was like a couple of weeks ago now I was talking to a friend of mine and we were talking about just like gender and sexuality and stuff and she was kind of like asking… we had been talking about asexuality and aromanticism. So, she was kind of asking some questions about that and like mentioning some friends she had that identified that way and she mentioned how she has been kind of going on… not like so much going on a gender journey because I don't think she's like identifying in any different way but she has just been thinking about her gender more as she gets older and she mentioned that in her, I think she's in her late 20s or early 30s, I honestly don't know, but she was mentioning that as she's gotten older, she's felt less and less like a sexual being. She was like, “it's really fucked up, but when I was like a teenager, I felt a lot more like a sexual being, people were perceiving me in that way, I like wanted to be perceived in that way,” which like that's a whole other can of worms
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: She was like, “that's fucked up.” But she was like, “I just like don't care about that as much anymore, like presenting myself in that way,” and she was like, “it makes me think about my gender differently, it makes me think about what it doesn't mean to be a woman when I'm not presenting in that way or caring about that or like wanting to be desired in that way.”
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And I was like, “oh, that's really interesting, I think a lot of aspec people feel that way, we've heard from a lot of people that there's kind of a detachment from their gender especially for women.”
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: That, you know, when you're not relating to sexual and romantic things that is so baked into the female gender
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: That it's like, okay, if I don't relate to that then like do I really feel like a woman?
SARAH: Yeah, what is womanhood?
KAYLA: What is woman? So, yeah, that's what I was telling her. I was like, “yeah, it kind of begs the question, like what is a woman without being desired and wanting to be desired?” Like, what is a woman without the man as the counterpart?
SARAH: Mm-hmm. You know, what I…
KAYLA: So, that is what brings me to my question is can you do womanhood and aspecness?
SARAH: Great question. You know what I learned the other day?
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: So, you know how we have the word… Okay, I'm on linguistics YouTube
KAYLA: Slay
SARAH: You know, there are like multiple guys who do linguistic shorts and they're just like white guys but they're different white guys
KAYLA: Huge
SARAH: And they're aware of each other and they're like, “no, I'm not that one, I'm the other one.”
KAYLA: I’m the other one, okay.
SARAH: Okay, anyway, the word for female and the word for male in English female actually does not come from the word male
KAYLA: Love that!
SARAH: They come from entirely different roots, one of them is like Latin and one of them is something that's not Latin. But originally female was actually spelled F-E-M-E-L-E. Like, femele because that was closer…
KAYLA: That sounds like… it feels French.
SARAH: Yeah, it was closer to the root word
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But because the word for male was male they decided to change the spelling so that it like matched
KAYLA: Rude
SARAH: But the words actually don't come from the same root.
KAYLA: I like that
SARAH: Me too
KAYLA: That's nice to know
SARAH: He he
KAYLA: Um, so, thoughts?
SARAH: Boy, do I ever have them? Um…
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: Yes. I mean, I have expressed on this podcast before my own journey with gender, which is very much… It's not exactly the same as what you described
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Because I have never wanted to be desired in that way
KAYLA: Right.
SARAH: But I think there is such a way that gender and our sexuality, and I don't mean that in the sense of like what your sexuality is, I mean that as like a general like your sexuality as a human being
KAYLA: Yeah, your sexual nature
SARAH: Yes. They are entwined in a way that is kind of inextricable for anyone
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And so, I would be interested to hear like what the opposite of this is like people who are like do you feel like quite sexual beings but are like agender or are…
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Like, I wonder if it goes the other way or not, but if you don't feel like you are that much of a sexual being
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: How does that relate to your gender? Because if you're a woman, if you're raised as a woman, if you're expected to act as a woman. Obviously, it's different from men because men are supposed to be like seeking sex and be like, “ooh, yeah, I want to fuck,” whereas women they're supposed to be like coy and whatever about it, but they're supposed to be desirable and they're supposed to look a certain way and also have a certain relationship with romance
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And so, if you don't have that, how do you define womanhood?
KAYLA: Right
SARAH: I have said before like I feel kind of disconnected from the idea of womanhood because like I just… What have I said before?
KAYLA: No, I do...
SARAH: Kayla, please tell them what I've said before
KAYLA: I guess I don't remember your exact words, but I think the idea is that just womanhood is packaged in a way of like what you care about is supposed to be like finding a relationship, especially… I think now it's getting a bit more progressive where you can like want to have sex a bunch so then you also get into like modern feminism which we've talked about
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: But yeah, if the ideal of being a woman is supposed to be like getting into a relationship becoming a mother, you know, all that kind of stuff, if you don't do that, then it's like well then what am I doing and who am I?
SARAH: Well, and like I was thinking about like, okay, so if womanhood is not wanting to be desired by a man, what is it?
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And the only thing I could think of were like stereotypes, like homemaker, mother, domestic care, like that sort of thing
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Which is not inherent to womanhood necessarily at all, like some people might be like well, like women are just like biologically they're the ones who bear the children, they have certain whatever instincts, I'm not going to fuck… whatever
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But you are not defined… like you and your gender are not defined by your ability to procreate
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And to raise children. So, if your womanhood is not defined by that and it's not defined by your desirability, what is it defined by? I don't know. And I think that's part of my thing with gender is like, well, what is there about femininity and womanhood for me to be attached to?
KAYLA: Yeah. I think for me what I get from you and I think what feels like better to be attached to even for me is girlhood
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: To me I feel a very strong connection with girlhood
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Like, the more like, I don't want to say childish, but the more like…
[00:20:00]
SARAH: Innocent
KAYLA: Innocent aspects of growing up as a girl with friendships with other girls
SARAH: Solidarity
KAYLA: Yeah, like that is something that… and I almost feel like we're seeing a resurgence of that just in like a lot of the trends you see online or like the way people talk about female friendships…
SARAH: Like this is girlfriend meme
KAYLA: Yeah, exactly, like I just threw myself like a toddler princess party last month, you know?
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: Like I do feel like we're seeing a resurgence and people that are like the age of being women trying to like revert back to girlhood, which maybe is, I don't know recession indicator or whatever, I don’t know, but like…
SARAH: They always are
KAYLA: They always are, but to me that is what feels better because like for me I've never questioned my gender. Like, I feel…
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: I feel secure in that, I'm just like, “I'm a lady,” whatever.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: But there is a certain amount of disconnect with a lot of like female stereotypes that I feel. Like the idea of like, I don't know, more the side of womanhood that's like the gossiping about boys and the talking about sex, more than like the New Age feminism aspect of it, like, that I just can't relate to because it's like empowered body, like hook up a bunch, let's all like talk about all the sex we're having and stuff and you should be having this much sex like that I obviously just like don't connect to, it's more of the like female friendship solidarity and like that aspect that I feel a lot closer to
SARAH: Yeah, for me my connection to womanhood and the female gender is primarily informed by oppression
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: And like a shared experience of misogyny
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And so, like the things that I most relate to with womanhood and other women is the way that I have been treated by and disadvantaged by and the way that I have to go through life differently than I would if I were assigned male at birth
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And so, that's not like a cool optimistic like, yeah, the thing that connects me to my gender is oppression, I think that's cool, like no
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And so, then it's like well, why bother associating with it. But I think you're right about the aspect of girlhood is like, I think the resurgence of girlhood one could say that… as something people are talking about and people are talking about positively, you could say that there's like an infantilization whatever aspect of it, I don't really think that's what it is
KAYLA: No
SARAH: I think it's people in a lot of ways romanticizing, it could be like teenage hood but also like prepubescent
KAYLA: Oh, yeah
SARAH: Like before you were seen as a sexual being
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: And romanticizing that age where like you and your friends would just get together and exist
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And like it's just romanticizing that idea of community and then how that community has kind of like stuck together past puberty and past the point where you do become a sexual object and like wanting to maintain that sense of community and belongingness because like these people have been through similar things to you, they understand you. Like, even if you are a woman who has never experienced like sexual violence or domestic violence. Like, anything even remotely bad, you're still going to have had certain experiences that are specific to the fact that you're perceived as a woman and that is a shared experience among AFABs everywhere
KAYLA: Yeah, I really do think it's the sense of community honestly that draws me the most because as you were saying like the thing that draws you to womanhood is like misogyny
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: I feel like a big draw for me is just my mistrust and dislike of men which is also…
SARAH: Misandry
KAYLA: Misandry. Which also like and I recognize that puts a strong binary in place of me being like, “I identify as a woman because I hate men,” and it's like, well, that's not the only two options
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: But I guess in my mind, it's kind of me and everyone else versus men
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: It's like me and all the genderqueer people…
SARAH: The girls, the gays
KAYLA: Yeah, and then versus the men
SARAH: Versus the men
KAYLA: Because just like unfortunately because of things in life I just cannot trust the vast majority of men and I just, you know
SARAH: Yeah. Well, and men are constantly proving that they can't be trusted
KAYLA: This is what I'm saying
SARAH: And I don't mean you're very… like, people are always like, well, so and so is really nice and it's like, it's fucking… Like not all men versus all women game
KAYLA: I'm literally engaged to a man, like, I get it, you know
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: It's just like most of them are so stinky
SARAH: Yeah. It is really just encapsulated by like the yes, all women hashtag like no, it's not every man, but like every woman or every person who is perceived as a woman deals with that shit
KAYLA: Yeah. Mm-hmm
SARAH: He he
KAYLA: Ha ha ha
SARAH: Speaking of men, can manhood… I feel like people often refer to like your dick is your manhood
KAYLA: They do, that’s the thing, I don’t love that, I don’t know how else to describe it though
SARAH: And so, I don't like saying… I don't know how to say it. Is manhood extricable from the stereotypes of men? I think once again gender isn't real and if you take it all apart, there's nothing there and it falls apart
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But… continue
KAYLA: Thinking on aspec identities in particular, I think that the difficult thing is for women you have to want romance
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: Not want sex, but be sexually desirable
SARAH: Yes
KAYLA: Men are allowed to not want romance
SARAH: Yes
KAYLA: But they must want sex
SARAH: Yes
KAYLA: So, in certain ways it's a lot more strict, but in other ways there's a little bit more leniency
SARAH: Yes
KAYLA: So, I think for aro men, I'm not an aro man, so what the fuck do I know? But just my… I don't know, my gut is that there's like a little bit more that can like stay intertwined there. But if you're an ace man…
SARAH: In terms of, oh, aro, you said aro, right, okay
KAYLA: Aro, yes
SARAH: Right, so, like if you're aro then you're like, “well, yeah, I'm not interested in the romance, anyway, necessarily.”
KAYLA: Yeah, to me the standard stereotype of a man
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: Almost is aro
SARAH: Yeah, in some ways
KAYLA: Like, you're very, very stereotypical, like hyper masculine
SARAH: Like romance is just the means to an end and the end is pussy
KAYLA: Yes. Obviously, that's not… you know
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: I don't think most men are like that…
SARAH: Totally not
KAYLA: But going into the very extreme stereotypes, I would think that maybe aroness like… and I'd be very, very interested to hear from aro men on their experience with their gender and that orientation
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: But asexuality to me seems like, I don't know, that seems an incredibly difficult for someone who's a man to navigate that especially if you don't have any other queer identities. Like all your other identities are like straight and cis
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: But then you have asexuality that seems incredibly difficult to me
SARAH: I also think, as they say these days, like the manosphere which like…
KAYLA: I've never heard that in my life and I'm sad to have heard it now
SARAH: Oh, the manosphere is like Andrew Tate's podcast and like…
KAYLA: Like Joe Rogan?
SARAH: Yeah, like Joe Rogan, like all of that
KAYLA: I wish I had never heard that
SARAH: I’m sorry
KAYLA: You should be
SARAH: I think in general the manosphere is more toxic than like the girls club
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Not to say that the girls club is not toxic because it is
KAYLA: Yeah, but I don't think there's a violence to it
SARAH: There's not, there's definitely much less of a violence to it and it's also… I feel there's more wiggle room. Like if you step out of the bounds, you might still get whacked but you have more space to walk around whereas with men if you are not on the straight and aro, you're getting whacked, you know?
KAYLA: Yeah, I do think you're right. I think it is manhood and that ideal of a hyper-masculinity is much more highly policed
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Like a woman can wear a suit and it's like, slay
SARAH: Girl boss
KAYLA: A man cannot wear a dress, yeah, yeah. Obviously, that's like a wide metaphor, but
SARAH: Of course, yeah. A man wears nail polish, he's gay, he's one of them queers, a woman cuts her hair short it's just like, a little pixie cut
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: You know?
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I mean, at the end of the day if you pull all of this stuff out away from gender there is nothing left, it is a house of fucking cards
[00:30:00]
KAYLA: Oh, yeah, I mean, I think the sexuality and the romance is so necessary to the building of like the performance of gender. Like, if you don't… Like I'm thinking of you know those like birds that like get like the male birds get all like colorful and do like the dances or whatever?
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: Like if you don't have the ‘opposite sexes’ doing that performance for each other, like there's nothing left
SARAH: What’s the difference?
KAYLA: That's all that it is
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Is like that performance of it. So, you take that away you start not desiring that
SARAH: Then it's just biological differences, it's just sex, it's not gender
KAYLA: Right
SARAH: And there are a lot of people who think sex and gender are the same thing
KAYLA: And they are not
SARAH: And that’s part of the problem
KAYLA: And they're not, and they just aren't
SARAH: Did you see… I think it was in the UK, because of fucking J.K. Rowling and her all of her anti-trans stuff, there was a protest where a bunch of trans women said, “okay, so we're men. Okay, so we're men.” So, they walked around topless
KAYLA: I did see this
SARAH: And then they got cited by the police for nudity and they said, “but I thought we were men.’
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: “Men don't get cited for public nudity if they're not wearing shirts”
KAYLA: Which is it?
SARAH: Pick a side
KAYLA: They can't. It's like the whole bathroom thing, like you're telling me… like, you can't go on… No
SARAH: Yeah. The more I dive into gender and think about gender the more it is so apparent to me that it is nothing
KAYLA: Mm-hmm. It's literally just everyone collectively agreeing that that's what we're going to do and it's like, well…
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: Why?
SARAH: It's like how everyone agrees that a square is a rectangle
KAYLA: Well, I don't know if it's quite like that
SARAH: It's like how everyone…
KAYLA: Though I guess squares and rectangles are like things we made, so, maybe
SARAH: It's like how everyone agrees that chartreuse is a shade of yellow and not a shade of green
KAYLA: I need to look up chartreuse really quick because I thought chartreuse was green
SARAH: Me too, me too. Wait, hold on
KAYLA: I thought chartreuse was green
SARAH: Chartreuse color
KAYLA: Which is crazy because chartreuse…
SARAH: Oh, on, it is green
KAYLA: Well
SARAH: It's a striking yellow-green color
KAYLA: Chartreuse to me always…
SARAH: I would call that green
KAYLA: Yeah, that's green. I always think the name chartreuse just sounds red to me
SARAH: Yeah, I can see that.
KAYLA: Yeah, come up with a different metaphor because that is green
SARAH: It's like how we agree… what do we agree on?
KAYLA: I mean, I would say like that blue is for boys and pink is for girls, but that's just more gender shit
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Which is crazy because pink used to be for boys
SARAH: I know
KAYLA: And then they decided it wasn't and we all decided to forget that
SARAH: ‘PYNK’ by Janelle Monae is a good song
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: It's like how we all agree to stand in lines because no one, in most cases, unless you're at Disney, like if you're at the grocery store and you're checking out and there's not a register open, you get in line
KAYLA: No, this one doesn't work
SARAH: I’m really trying
KAYLA: Because there will be some sort of policing if you don't do the line
SARAH: Exactly, it's self-policed
KAYLA: Yeah, but there's like a reason to do the line
SARAH: It’s not laws
KAYLA: No, but there's a reason to do the line, like it makes things better
SARAH: It's like how everyone agrees that for some reason Zombies are slower than people
KAYLA: I don’t think that's good either. Let me google social constructs really quick and see what we can…
SARAH: It’s like how everyone agrees that January 1st is on January 1st
KAYLA: Okay. Yes. It’s time, time
SARAH: It's like how everyone agrees in time
KAYLA: Good, good job
SARAH: Except in places where they use different forms of time in which case they agree on that
KAYLA: Yeah, no. Yes time, inches, miles
SARAH: If you're one of those Americans
KAYLA: A unit of measurement
SARAH: Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah, yeah
KAYLA: Of space or time
SARAH: We're on to something
KAYLA: We've done it
SARAH: You know in like the… It was between the ten hundreds and fifteen hundreds, which is a really broad, really broad range, the month of October just like skipped two weeks, it went from like October 5th to October 21st
KAYLA: I was just listening to ‘Hey, Riddle Riddle,’ which is a really funny...
SARAH: Hey, riddle riddle
KAYLA: Shut up. I was listening to ‘Hey, Riddle Riddle,’ which is like an improvised like riddle podcast
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: And they sometimes do riddles from like a really shitty book of riddles, like they just don't make sense
SARAH: Mm
KAYLA: And the question was like, what notable thing happened like June 11th 1772 in London? And they were like, ‘fuck, if I know,” and the answer was that that year…
SARAH: The king pissed on the floor
KAYLA: That year London just decided to get the calendar back on track that a couple of days didn't exist that year
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Because somehow the calendar was off. So, they were like June 10th and 11th gone, we’re not doing them this year, it goes from 9th to 12th. What?
SARAH: You can just do that
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: You can just do that, nothing is real
KAYLA: Nothing is real
SARAH: Wow, I'm glad we got there eventually
KAYLA: Yeah, that was stressful, I got scared now
SARAH: Now, I'm just staring at the color chartreuse, it really is greener than I thought it was, I think…
KAYLA: I mean, it's definitely like a yellow toned green
SARAH: It is
KAYLA: But I would say it’s green
SARAH: I think when I picture chartreuse in my head, I picture it as a fabric
KAYLA: Oh, interesting
SARAH: And that makes it somehow yellower to me, like an old fabric. And so, it probably got yellow because it's old
KAYLA: Yellowed, right, yeah
SARAH: Okay, so gender isn't real, we've established this
KAYLA: Okay, so who can answer my question, can womanhood and aspec identities coexist? Yes or no?
SARAH: I think we're forcing them to but you know how like when… this is so stupid, I was at the gym yesterday and they had ‘The Librarians’ on TV, I've never watched ‘The Librarians’ in my life
KAYLA: Wasn't that like new on like…
SARAH: They like recently…
KAYLA: Or some shit?
SARAH: No, it’s TNT
KAYLA: Oh
SARAH: They like recently brought it back or something
KAYLA: Oh
SARAH: And I was walking on the treadmill and so I was… House Hunters International was on a commercial break
KAYLA: Damn it, no
SARAH: They were buying a house in Italy
KAYLA: Of course, they were
SARAH: They had to have enough room for their grown sons to visit
KAYLA: Of course
SARAH: One of the houses just didn't have a kitchen
KAYLA: Nooooo
SARAH: Like they would have had to install their own kitchen
KAYLA: Nooo, no
SARAH: They had a space for a kitchen but…
KAYLA: That's always happening on House Hunters International, they’re always just missing a fucking sink
SARAH: And it was also over budget
KAYLA: Yeah, of course it was, of course it was
SARAH: Anyway. So, House Hunters International was on commercial, so, I was watching ‘The Librarians’ and there was like this train going through space and time, I didn't know what was going on, there was like a time sign, I don't know
KAYLA: Sure
SARAH: But at one point they were like in the train and there were people and they were like, “our realities are merging,” and like the realities merging was fucking everything up and they were like, “we have to make the reality stop merging,” okay? Because it fucking… it implodes on itself if you have too many realities happening in one place
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: That's how I feel about asexuality and womanhood
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: We're forcing them to exist in one place and they're eating at each other
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And eventually that's going to collapse into like a black hole or something
KAYLA: That makes sense, because like obviously, like the question is rhetorical, right?
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: Like, obviously they are coexisting
SARAH: Right
KAYLA: Like as two things, social constructs, whatever, like it is happening
SARAH: I thought you were going to say like as to like women referring to both of us
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But then you decided not to call us women and you called us things
KAYLA: Well, we are
SARAH: Before you finished your sentence that's what I thought it was happening
KAYLA: No. Clearly, they are both happening, but I think it is not uncommon for women who are aspec to feel that dissonance of two things that just don't quite fit together
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: And I imagine men that are aspec feel the same way, but I'm not one of those so I couldn't say for sure
SARAH: Yeah, I think they're going to continue to eat at each other until one of two things happens. One, fascism
KAYLA: Right
SARAH: And fascism pushes the gender binary back apart into exactly two genders
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
[00:40:00]
SARAH: And people are forced to accept that and forget everything they knew about gender ideology, evil gender ideology
KAYLA: Oh, no, scary
SARAH: And that happens and to get back to where we are now, we would, you know, have to have a whole… like humans would have to figure it all out again, maybe…
KAYLA: They'd have to do stonewall again
SARAH: Maybe find some books that somehow weren't burned
KAYLA: Right, Jesus, so bleak
SARAH: Or these things are going to continue rubbing up against each other and eating at each other and maybe someday might collapse into each other and then we'll live in a perfect utopia where nothing is real
KAYLA: I would love that
SARAH: Honestly, I think fascism is more likely…
KAYLA: Stop, what!?
SARAH: Have you read the news?
KAYLA: Yeah, but we don't have to talk about it right now
SARAH: Hey, hey, hey, hey, the not fascist won the election in Korea
KAYLA: Let’s clap. All the other countries are doing it, they see what's going on over here and they're like, “no, no thank you.”
SARAH: You know, if you want to give the US credit for anything, it's we are making sure other countries aren’t falling into fascism
KAYLA: We’re fucking up so bad that other countries are like, “whoa.”
SARAH: “Wait a minute…”
KAYLA: “No”
SARAH: “Actually, we don't like this.”
KAYLA: No. I was going to ask if you thought that's what heaven was like, just like a perfect reality where nothing was real, and I was like, “well, of course it is, because God actually has no gender.”
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: If you actually read the Bible correctly, bitch
SARAH: That's true
KAYLA: So
SARAH: And I actually have been thinking because I've been working on my thing that was a script that I'm writing as a novel that has to do with the afterlife but not the afterlife, there are gods but there is no afterlife
KAYLA: Right
SARAH: I will explain this to you more not on the podcast
KAYLA: That's… okay. I know of this, I thought I knew of what you were talking about, but I don't remember any of your previous writing projects involving the afterlife or the lack thereof of gods
SARAH: Well, it's not really a… well, gods are definitely a thing
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: It's not really about the afterlife, but it is about mortality, anyway
KAYLA: Right
SARAH: Well, where was I going with this? Oh, I've just been like thinking about it a lot and so, I was like…
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I don't know where I was going with this. I think I was going somewhere and then I got off track like the train on that episode of ‘The Librarians’ that I watched at the gym with no volume and subtitles and I only jumped in halfway through the episode and then I went back to House Hunters International because I wanted to see which one they would buy
KAYLA: Which one did they buy?
SARAH: The third one, it had a kitchen
KAYLA: Good, that's what you want in a house
SARAH: It didn't have AC
KAYLA: Well, it wasn't going to
SARAH: Yeah, it's Italy
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And they were like, “well, can we get AC added?” And the realtor was like, “maybe, maybe not, this is a historic area.”
KAYLA: Probably, definitely not.
SARAH: So, you have to ask permission from the government to put it
KAYLA: Just put a window unit in
SARAH: Anyway
KAYLA: Live like us poor people in Boston
SARAH: Yeah, the wife forced the husband to learn to be poor
KAYLA: Huh!?
SARAH: He wanted to… he was like well, ‘I might be willing to pay more to get exactly what we want,” and she was like…
KAYLA: “No”
SARAH: “Hey, we're retiring, I think we can scale down a little bit, actually. We're already spending fucking $600,000 buying a house in Italy.”
KAYLA: That’s very responsible of her
SARAH: Also, it seemed to me that they weren't selling their house in the U.S.
KAYLA: Of course, they weren't
SARAH: But they were moving to…
KAYLA: They're probably just going to make it into a like a real estate rental property
SARAH: Probably
KAYLA: They're going to be landlords now
SARAH: And then they did like the whole like three months later like to check in see how they are
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And they were like, “we love living here, we love getting coffee and eating out on our balcony, we love meeting up with friends,” and I was like, “you've lived in this town for three months, how do you have friends?”
KAYLA: How do you have friends? Who are your friends? Did they even speak Italian?
SARAH: The guy did because his parents were Italian immigrants
KAYLA: Okay, this is more… okay
SARAH: Yeah, he had he had grown up like coming to Italy every year
KAYLA: All right, fine.
SARAH: And so, then he and his wife went Italy a lot and they brought their sons to Italy a lot. So, he was like returning home, sort of
KAYLA: This is one of the more reasonable….
SARAH: It was, it was more reasonable
KAYLA: Origins of a House Hunters International episode
SARAH: Yeah, it was more reasonable. Anyway
KAYLA: I once knew someone who went on House Hunters International
SARAH: Did they hunt it?
KAYLA: I don't know, she went on before I knew her but…
SARAH: Oh
KAYLA: I didn't like her as a person
SARAH: That's too bad. So, you didn't get a lot of details?
KAYLA: No
SARAH: Oh. You didn't want to engage further
KAYLA: Absolutely not
SARAH: Kayla?
KAYLA: Yes
SARAH: What's our poll for this week? I really had to think about whether poll or beef and juice was next, I really had to think about it
KAYLA: Yeah, we haven't been doing this for like seven years or whatever
SARAH: One whole week
KAYLA: Yeah. I think our poll should be, can you separate or can traditional notions of gender coexist with asexuality and aromanticism?
SARAH: Yeah, that’s a good question. And the answer is yes or no, you're not allowed to have any nuance.
KAYLA: Yeah, no more thoughts than that, no nuance, just a yes or no
SARAH: Nuance is banned in 2025
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Kayla, what's your beef and your juice for this week?
KAYLA: My beef is that last night my cat woke us up just fucking screaming
SARAH: Good
KAYLA: Which is not uncommon, but she had been better about it and then last night she returned with a vengeance
SARAH: You know like a week or two ago, my cat woke me up at like 6:30 in the morning because she was screaming
KAYLA: Mm
SARAH: At a stray cat on the balcony
KAYLA: Aww, she wanted to make friends
SARAH: No, she did not
KAYLA: Oh
SARAH: Kayla, my child is not good with other cats
KAYLA: How did a stray cat get on your balcony?
SARAH: I don't know, the stray cat lives around here
KAYLA: That’s like really… like that's quite the climb
SARAH: I've seen this cat before, just never on my balcony. There's like a tree…
KAYLA: How did it get there?
SARAH: Because I only live one storey up and there's like a tree…
KAYLA: Oh, why did I think you were on the third floor?
SARAH: No, I'm on the first floor
KAYLA: Well, it's still quite the climb
SARAH: I'm on the first-floor European style.
KAYLA: So, the second floor?
SARAH: So, the second floor, but it's called the first floor
KAYLA: Okay. Ground floor and then one, I assume
SARAH: Yes
KAYLA: Anyway, and that was my beef. My juice is that my job is less stressful for the next like two months
SARAH: That's good
KAYLA: And that's nice
SARAH: Love that for you
KAYLA: And we're on our summer schedule, so, I get to be home more
SARAH: Yay
KAYLA: Yay
SARAH: My beef is I'm just like always so itchy, I tried to take allergy medicine because I'm allergic to my cat, I think I was allergic to the allergy medicine. I want to see like an allergist
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And have them tell me, but then I was trying to find out if I could just go to one or if I had to get referred by my PCP and then I couldn't log into my thing. So, like everything is going really well
KAYLA: Yeah, yeah, that’s good
SARAH: But, yeah, no I'm just so itchy all the time and I have hives because I can't stop itching but at least I'm not having hives caused by allergy medicine
KAYLA: Things are looking up
SARAH: My juice is that now I can take one half of a daily multivitamin after dinner and I won't vomit. I only learned this from vomiting, I only threw up three times.
KAYLA: Oh, I thought it was way more than that
SARAH: Four times? Mm, one of them was when I took the iron supplement, it wasn't the multivitamin
KAYLA: Oh, yeah
SARAH: I vomed at least twice from the multivitamin and once from the iron supplement
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I bought an iron Snoopy
KAYLA: I was going to ask about this, that’s huge
SARAH: It's coming in the mail
KAYLA: Huge
SARAH: It's coming from Japan, so it's taking a while.
KAYLA: Yeah, you got that good Japanese iron
SARAH: He he he he. I didn't want to get a fish, I could have gotten a fish sooner, I could have gotten a Hello Kitty sooner, I could have gotten that like a really round bear sooner, but I was like, “I want to be Snoopy”
KAYLA: Fair. I feel like Snoopy has been having a resurgence lately
SARAH: Oh, yeah
KAYLA: I am seeing that guy everywhere
SARAH: I think it's partially because of the Snoopy thing
KAYLA: Oh
SARAH: I have a friend who really loves a Snoopy
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: Anyway. You can tell us about your beef and your juice on our social media…
KAYLA: Ooh, one more juice
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: I'm pretty sure Crocs is doing an American Girl doll collab, which is just hilarious and I can't wait to see it
SARAH: Who is going to wear them? Can we put some on Felicity?
KAYLA: I do hope they make doll versions
SARAH: I heard that Felicity is getting discontinued
KAYLA: Noooo
SARAH: Because I saw a video where it showed Julie who's like the 1970s doll that they… Julie was new when we were like in like middle school, I think
KAYLA: Yeah
[00:50:00]
SARAH: And the person was holding Felicity and they were like, “Julie gets to be high on drugs and Julie is allowed… little girls are allowed to have Julie but no, no, no, no, no, we can't talk about the American Revolution.”
KAYLA: They don't understand what those girls went through, all the measles and mumps they were dying from
SARAH: I know, I had Felicity, I think she was a second…
KAYLA: I had, I think we had Felicity and Kit, maybe
SARAH: My first one was Kit
KAYLA: Who had the horse?
SARAH: Felicity
KAYLA: Because I think we had her horse too, and then we had a bitty baby
SARAH: Mm
KAYLA: I was talking some of my co-workers about American Girls the other day because I think they have like young kids and some of their kids wanted them, and they were like, “yeah, but the ones they want aren't like the historical ones, they just want the new modern ones that don't even come with a story.” And I was like…
SARAH: Yeah, or the ones that are just like me
KAYLA: Oh, I think we even had Samantha
SARAH: Oh, my sister had Samantha
KAYLA: I think we had Samantha, I loved the Samantha movie, oh, I ate that shit
SARAH: Tea
KAYLA: Like we had Samantha and Felicity, maybe
SARAH: My sister had Samantha
KAYLA: Okay. Anyway
SARAH: Brrrrrrr
KAYLA: We’ve got to be moving on. And that's on girlhood
SARAH: Okay, you can tell us about your beef, your juice, your thoughts on American Girls dolls on our social media
KAYLA: Yeah, what American Girls dolls did you have? I'm dying to know
SARAH: What did you have? What did you want?
KAYLA: Did they ever go to the hospital? My sister went to the hospital one time
SARAH: What did you hate? Did you ever fuck up their hair really bad?
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: Don't take Kirsten's braids out
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: It's hard to fix them
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But then if you go to the American Girl Dolls store in Chicago you can get them fixed
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Anyway
KAYLA: You know, you can have like tea at the store?
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: I think we should go, let's meet up in Chicago
SARAH: Okay
KAYLA: And have tea at the American Girl Dolls store
SARAH: If you're familiar with American Girl Dolls, please diagnose Kayla and I as one
KAYLA: Ooh, fun
SARAH: Anyway
KAYLA: But none of the new shit, none of the new shit
SARAH: Give me those original
KAYLA: OG girls
SARAH: OGs
KAYLA: Who were all suffering
SARAH: All suffering. @soundsfakepod. We have a Patreon, patreon.com/soundsfakepod if you'd like to give us your money so that we can go to the America Girl Doll store in Chicago…
KAYLA: And get tea
SARAH: And get tea. There are other American Girl Dolls stores, but I think we need… it's specifically the Chicago one that we need to go to
KAYLA: That’s like the one
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Especially for little girls in the Midwest
SARAH: Exactly
KAYLA: That’s the American Girl Dolls store
SARAH: It's the Windy City, okay?
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: It's fucking windy and the wind will fuck up your doll’s hair, you got to get it fixed.
KAYLA: Bougee
SARAH: Anyway. Our $5 patrons… so, I would like to apologize to Iris, who should have been added as a $5 patron in the last episode, but was not
KAYLA: Boooooo
SARAH: I choose to blame you because…
KAYLA: Was the email in the wrong section?
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Noo, my perfect organization
SARAH: The email was in the wrong section of the email, so I didn't see it
KAYLA: No, my perfect organizational system, how could this happen?
SARAH: So, this is what happens when Kayla tries to put sections in our email, what kind of bullshit is that?
KAYLA: It helps me
SARAH: That's not helping. But you're the one who uses it, so, that's okay
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: I like how you're wearing a shirt from your previous employer
KAYLA: It's comfy, unfortunately
SARAH: Anyway, Iris, thank you for your patronage. Sorry that this is two weeks late. Your last name is on patreon, I don't know if you want me to use it or not, so, let me know. Our other $5 patrons who we are promoting this week are Alexander, Alma, Alucard Zavertnik, Amanda Kyker, and Ashley W. Our $10 patrons who are promoting something this week are Benjamin Ybarra who would like to promote Tabletop games, Clare Olsen who would like to promote @Impact_Frame, Derick & Carissa who would like to promote supporting each other through the transitions we face, whoa, I’m rusty. Elle Bitter, who would like to promote using the use of tone indicators… normalizing, normalizing the use of tone? I think I fucked that up, that's what I would like to promote, and Eric who would like to promote Queer ASL. I am tongue-pied. Our other $10 patrons are my aunt Jeannie, Johanna, Kayla's dad, Maff, Martin Chiesl, Purple Hayes, Barefoot Backpacker, SongOStorm, Val, Alastor, Ani, and Arcnes. Our $15 patrons are Ace who'd like to promote the writer Crystal Scherer, Nathaniel White, NathanielJWhiteDesigns.com, Kayla’s Aunt Nina who would like to promote katemaggartart.com and Schnell who would like to promote accepting that everyone is different and that's awesome. Our $20 patrons are Dragonfly, Dr. Jacki, my mom and River who would like to promote the fact that I've really improved since I said that I was very tongue-pied.
KAYLA: Yeah, the last couple of seconds were really good
SARAH: I really ate that
KAYLA: She really ate that
SARAH: I ate that shit. Thanks for listening, tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears
KAYLA: And until then, take good care of your cows
[END OF TRANSCRIPT]
