Sounds Fake But Okay
Sounds Fake But Okay
Ep 357: Aspec Smut Writers
Hey what's up hello! This week we explore why acespecs are so good at writing smut and why arospecs are so good at writing romance.
Episode Transcript: www.soundsfakepod.com/transcripts/aspec-smut-writers
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SARAH: Hey, what's up, hello! Welcome to Sounds Fake But Okay, a podcast where an aro ace girl (I'm Sarah, that's me.)
KAYLA: And a bi demisexual girl, (that's me Kayla.)
SARAH: Talk about all things to do with love, relationships, sexuality, and pretty much anything else we just don't understand.
KAYLA: On today's episode, ‘Aspec Smut Writers.’
BOTH: Sounds fake, but okay.
SARAH: Welcome back to the pod.
KAYLA: Hi.
SARAH: Hi everyone. How are you doing?
KAYLA: I don't want to talk about it.
SARAH: Cool. Did everyone enjoy our podcast last week that turned out to not be in fact original at all because we had done it before?
KAYLA: Okay, here's the thing, and no one else brought this up, I don't think… I saw no listeners bring this up. And I didn't notice it until I was uploading the transcript onto our website and I was typing it, I was making the URL and I was making it ‘slash, hot, dash, takes’ because that's what I do is just the title of the episode as the backslash and it wouldn't let me do it. And I was like, “why?”
SARAH: Why? It already exists?
KAYLA: And so, then I said, “wait a second, it already exists.” So, then I went to our episodes and I think it was episode 71.
SARAH: Yeah, it was a while ago
KAYLA: It was also called ‘hot takes.’ I looked at the description of that episode, I did not go back to the transcript or anything or listen to it, but it seems like it was just our hot takes about kind of anything generally.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: And this one was our hot takes and listeners’ hot takes more specifically about gender and sexuality, so.
SARAH: And then also my thing.
KAYLA: And also, whatever was going on with you
SARAH: And Kayla sent a screenshot of this to me and she said, “what if I told you that we had done this episode before?” And I said, “well, then I would say to you, it was an idea so good we had it twice,” you know?
KAYLA: Yeah. I thought about like changing the episode title to be like ‘Hot Takes (gender and sexuality)’ or something, but then I was like, “whatever!”
SARAH: Don't be silly.
KAYLA: If no one else is going to bring it up, then clearly, whatever.
SARAH: If no one else noticed, then we should start reusing other previous…
KAYLA: I mean, hey, we really should.
SARAH: All right, Kayla, I have been informed by the man on high that you have a housekeeping.
KAYLA: It's true, this housekeeping is brought to you by I have a new planner and journal system I'm attempting to use to fix everything. And so, I have some pages for podcast notes and on them I have some house to keep.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: First of all, last week when at the very end, for some reason, we were discussing pets.
SARAH: Yes.
KAYLA: And then we got into like barnyard animals and I said, “cows” and you said, “well, cows can't be pets.” We received a DM on Instagram, let me find it real quick.
SARAH: I don't know that I meant that cows can't be pets, it's just they're not… like, you have to really have a lot of… Oh, is it about that guy who moved from New York City to Pennsylvania and has cows?
KAYLA: This message is just from Julia.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: Julia said sent three pictures of their cow and said, “that's Angie, while she lives at my work, she's my pet, she's three years old and spending the summer out in the field with Marilyn, an 11-year-old retired old lady, her purpose in life is to look cute, which she does an incredible job at.”
SARAH: Aww, she's very cute. Aww, look at her.
KAYLA: So, you're wrong, cows can be pets.
SARAH: I just mean that you have to have a lot of space and resources to have a cow as a pet. And so, they're not a very common pet.
KAYLA: But they are.
SARAH: I apologize for what I said before.
KAYLA: Thank you. My next item.
SARAH: Yes.
KAYLA: Is that do you remember when we talked to the folks who made ‘Dear Luke, Love, Me’ the aspec film about a long term QPR?
SARAH: Yes.
KAYLA: It was a long time ago now. Their movie is now available for preorder on Apple TV.
SARAH: Whoa!
KAYLA: I have been informed that if enough people preorder it, some very exciting distribution things could happen.
SARAH: Whoa!
KAYLA: So
SARAH: Like they might be able to screen it directly into the back of your eyelids.
KAYLA: Right, that is what my inside source told me for sure.
SARAH: Yes
KAYLA: Definitely. So, I will link that and you should do that.
SARAH: Very cool and fun.
KAYLA: My last housekeeping item is that Martin Chiesl
SARAH: Mm-hmm, Chiesl
KAYLA: Lovely patron. Chiesl
SARAH: Chiesl rhymes with Giselle.
KAYLA: Martin Gazelle, a lovely patron who I believe we have met. Yes?
SARAH: That's ringing a bell, yes, Martin Chiesl, I believe
KAYLA: I think Martin Chiesl, Giselle? Whatever. Is the person who flew to come to our book event.
SARAH: Yes, I do recall, I do recall this
KAYLA: Martin continues to be amazing
SARAH: To be an icon
KAYLA: And sent me their mother's button collection
SARAH: A whole collection!?
KAYLA: Slay. So, thank you for my buttons. I then posted that on our Instagram and someone responded, “when I heard about your button collection, I did not think it was buttons like this,” but it is.
SARAH: What did they think?
KAYLA: I think they felt like pins, like…
SARAH: Oh, like pins
KAYLA: Like that kind of button, like the big round pins.
SARAH: Right.
KAYLA: But no, it's like buttons like a shirt.
SARAH: The English language fails us once again.
KAYLA: It's a button like a shirt. So, that is my housekeeping for the day.
SARAH: I love that for the class, thank you for keeping this house. I got on some videos today about a guy who is a house inspector and he was showing some houses that are horrible.
KAYLA: Uh oh
SARAH: And he's like, “this house is going to cave in.”
KAYLA: That's not what you want from a house, I don't think.
SARAH: There was a realtor that got so mad at him for like being strict, as he should be.
KAYLA: As is his job.
SARAH: As is his job. That she like made an appeal to whoever gives the licenses and now he has to like prove that he's not... Yeah, he's appealing back, he's mad at her.
KAYLA: I bet.
SARAH: Her name is Karen, funnily enough.
KAYLA: For real?
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Wow.
SARAH: Anyway. All right, Kayla, what are we talking about this week?
KAYLA: This week, we are discussing the phenomenon that is acespec smut and romance writers and the skills that they…
SARAH: Possess.
KAYLA: Possess. Though it may seem that they shan't, but they do.
SARAH: I don't know if shan't was the right word, but I like the energy.
KAYLA: Whatever.
SARAH: Yes. I thought of this because I couldn't think of anything else.
KAYLA: And we've definitely talked about this in passing.
SARAH: We have, but it's time for a whole episode, baby. Let's begin first with just establishing the basics.
KAYLA: Right.
SARAH: I think everyone knows what romance writing is. What is smut?
KAYLA: Smut is sex writing.
SARAH: Yes, basically. Porn on paper.
KAYLA: It is porn written.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: Yep.
SARAH: And what have you heard… I'm like interviewing you, what have you heard about acespecs writing smut? Let's start just with smut, let's just start with aces writing smut, and then we'll expand from there.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: What's the lore that you've heard on the World Wide Web about this phenomenon?
KAYLA: The lore, as I understand it, is that way more acespecs than you would think write smut.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: I'm thinking particularly in fanfic spaces because I think that's just where it's more visible.
SARAH: Right.
KAYLA: Because I don't know that you know the identity of as many authors as you might a fanfic writer, just based on how fanfic is shared online.
SARAH: Sure. Also, I think there's... I was like, “I can't interrupt her. I'm interviewing her.” No, I'm not, this is my podcast.
KAYLA: You are, I'm the guest.
SARAH: Interesting.
KAYLA: I am the guest.
SARAH: You're the guest?
KAYLA: I'm the guest.
SARAH: Okay.
KAYLA: I am the guest. Okay. And which one of us reads more smut?
SARAH: Probably you.
KAYLA: So, who is the expert?
SARAH: I don't know. What are your numbers? I don't know what your numbers are.
KAYLA: Probably more than yours, I have to assume.
SARAH: I don't know your life.
KAYLA: I don't know your life, I guess. Are we even friends?
SARAH: Are we even friends? No, I was going to say something earlier, and then I forgot it, and then I was going to say another thing, and then I forgot it, so never mind. Back to the interview.
KAYLA: I need to stop touching things on my desk.
SARAH: Oh, I remember one of them. I feel like with smut in non-fanfiction fiction, it's a little bit different because it almost always, or it more often exists in the context of a romance book to begin with.
KAYLA: Yeah.
[00:10:00]
SARAH: Whereas smut in fanfiction can be in any type of story, and it doesn't have to be categorized as like romance for it to contain smut.
KAYLA: Yeah. So, the lore that I have learned is that there are more acespecs than you would think writing smut, and that they are the best at it.
SARAH: And that they're very good at it, yes. Do you agree with that? Do you have personal experience?
KAYLA: I can't remember ever reading smut that I knew for a fact was by an ace person, so I really couldn't say.
SARAH: I feel like you definitely have.
KAYLA: I'm sure I have, but not to my specific knowledge.
SARAH: Yeah, no, I know several people who are acespec who do write smut, and they just live their lives.
KAYLA: I love that.
SARAH: I love that for them. I encountered this Reddit thread on r/fanfiction. It's from three years ago. And it says, “asexual smut writers, recently I've heard from the internet that ace people write some of the best smut in fanfiction, and as an aro-ace person myself I find this hilarious. I was listening to a podcast that was theorizing the reason for this is that ace people might be less distracted by the smut of it all, so they can deconstruct what actually makes good smut,” I wonder if it was our podcast, probably not.
KAYLA: I was just… no, but I was just gonna say because we have talked about this before in passing in other topics so like, it could be
SARAH: It could be.
KAYLA: It could be. You respond back, hey, diss me?
SARAH: Imagine it was, and then that became inspiration for another... just circular, you know
KAYLA: It's just us, it's just us doing the same episode over and over again.
SARAH: Anyway, so hopping on the comments. Of course, this person says, “it just depends on the asexual since the spectrum it's kind of like how some aromantics don't want a romantic relationship in real life but love romance books or writing romance. Trust me, we don't always understand it either.” And then this person said, “I mean don't we all love reading stuff that we don't want in real-life. I'm a sucker for trauma and gaslighting toxic relationships but not super into that IRL.”
KAYLA: Yeah, that's very fair, I think there is a heavy trend that I have seen, specifically in romance and smut books that, like, I always see people talking about on BookTalk and stuff of just the most terrible men.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: And everyone's like, “yay, my book boyfriend.” And I'm like, “that's not healthy.”
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: But they like reading about it
SARAH: Like, as long as you understand it, and you're not putting it on a pedestal, I guess.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: But if it's out there in the world as like this really popular thing like I worry that there are people who will read it without that nuance.
KAYLA: Oh, for sure. Yeah.
SARAH: And that's why fanfiction is great because you have to already be in the space.
KAYLA: That's true you have to already be in the context.
SARAH: Yeah. So, OP then responded to that and said, “I'm definitely one of those aro-aces obsessed with romance and fanfic, but I'm repelled by it in real-life.” And so, then there's some interesting conversation here. I just got distracted by this comment that says, “I'm aro-ace and I've written smut (including an Avengers gangbang that was very well received.)”
KAYLA: “Very well received.” Love that.
SARAH: But this person says, “as a grayace writer myself who has spoken with fellow writers in a similar position, I'm thinking in some cases, it might be a matter of fiction representing the ideal for us, especially in terms of characters. So, while we might not be wild about having intimate relationships with most folks in real-life, sometimes that ancient God doesn't seem so awful.”
KAYLA: I also think that gets at the point of because acespecs have to spend so much time figuring out their identity and understanding what sex or romance is to understand whether they are attracted to it or not, they are intimately aware of what the ideal is because that is all they're seeing as they are looking out in society trying to figure out like, what is this? Am I attracted like this? Am I like how they say people should be?
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Of course, you would gain a really good awareness of what society says the ideal is.
SARAH: Yeah. Well, then this comment says, “honestly, I think it's because we just genuinely enjoy it LOL. We aren't as thrilled with it IRL, but get to live through it to the fullest extent in fiction without much hangups or stress about it. You don't have to worry much over realism or how ‘moral’ it has to be, or what descriptions are cringe, how to set the scene, et cetera. It's just fun to make, whether in a tame way or in a horny way. And I feel like aro-aces kind of go all out on it. No limits or worries or concerns and treating it like any other genre of fic. It should be an experience and immersive and fun/fucked up whatever your goal is.”
KAYLA: That's so funny. I think I remember the context of when we've talked about this before.
SARAH: Hit me with it.
KAYLA: You have told a story to me and I have to assume on here that you were runtime beta reading a friend’s fanfic...
SARAH: And I found an extra hand?
KAYLA: Yes. And the way they were describing things, this person must have had three hands to get what they were doing. And I remember saying like, “Oh, it makes sense because you're reading it objectively, you're not getting caught up”
SARAH: I mean, I was also beta reading it. So, like you have to be reading it objectively.
KAYLA: Yeah, but, like, you know?
SARAH: Yeah, I know
KAYLA: To me that was like, of course, you would catch that because you're focused on the logistics of it, not like in the feeling of it.
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Or like a personal connection to it
SARAH: Yeah, but I think ace people definitely can read smut, like, even if they're like sex-averse, I mean, probably if you’re not sex-repulsed, you tell me, you tell me. But like even if you're sex-averse like you can still get into reading it, or writing it. I think for a lot of people, I think, specifically in like the sex-averse realm the thing about smut in fanfiction is that it does not involve you.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And so, there are certain things of smut, and those sorts of interactions with sex and shit.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: Not with shit, I guess, if you want, if that's something you're into.
KAYLA: If that’s what you’re into
SARAH: But like you can immerse yourself in that world without it having to be about you at all.
KAYLA: Yeah. I also find, personally, that I am much more comfortable with sexual media in the written form than visually.
SARAH: Mm-hmm, yeah
KAYLA: It's just like a lot for me to see anything like that with my eyes sometimes. But written, it's like, well, I could choose to imagine what's happening in my mind or I could just read the words and not do that.
SARAH: Right.
KAYLA: It feels more separate.
SARAH: Yeah, that's fair. Do you find, now I'm just asking you questions. Again, this is an interview.
KAYLA: And I'm the guest.
SARAH: Do you find that you are more drawn to sapphic or straight or achillean smut? Or is it more just like you're reading things that have it in it, or you're reading shits that are already a certain thing, and it's there?
KAYLA: That's a good question. I guess, in fiction, not fan fiction, I guess, I don't know, like I, especially in the past couple years as I've gotten back into reading, have made it a point to read queer fiction. And so, if I'm reading queer fiction that happens to have like romance or sex plots, then like it's going to be sapphic or achillean or whatever.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: But that's not also all I read. So, I don't know that I specifically gravitate towards one over the other. I think I'm just kind of reading.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Like, if it's there, you know, as it comes to me, I suppose.
SARAH: And if it's in fanfiction, like it's obviously going to be whatever the...
KAYLA: Right, whatever that should be.
SARAH: Well, I mean, there is gender-bent stuff, which does...
KAYLA: That's true. I mean, I just haven't really read fanfiction in a dedicated way in a while.
SARAH: Sucks to be you.
KAYLA: It does kind of, it does.
SARAH: Because I have a theory that could be completely false.
KAYLA: I can't wait to hear it.
SARAH: But my theory is that for people who might be sex-averse, but are interested in reading smut or are just like fine with reading smut, those people might prefer if it's... First of all, if it's straight, who cares? Get it out of here, no one wants straight shit. Second of all...
KAYLA: Everyone hates that.
SARAH: So, like, if we're looking at like achillean versus sapphic, okay, if those are the two options that we have.
KAYLA: Sure.
SARAH: I feel like people who might be sex-averse might be more interested in whichever one does not match what they have.
KAYLA: Like would not involve them at all.
SARAH: Yes.
KAYLA: I could see that.
SARAH: Because you are reading it somewhat objectively as an observer.
[00:20:00]
KAYLA: Right
SARAH: It has nothing to do with you, it's not going to happen…
KAYLA: Yeah, nothing to do with your anatomy at all.
SARAH: Right, that's my theory.
KAYLA: That's interesting. And this is also assuming that I think most of this conversation pertains to more like sex-averse people and people that aren't having sex.
SARAH: Yes.
KAYLA: Though I do still think acespec people who have sex but are not like sexually attracted to people, or are not regularly sexually attracted to people, still have that more objective perspective.
SARAH: Mm-hmm
KAYLA: Because you're not, I don't want to say like clouded by the attraction, but I just think it makes the perspective different.
SARAH: Yeah. This person says, “well, when you're less interested in the raw plumbing of the act, you tend to focus more on motivations, goals, and feelings of it, I guess.”
KAYLA: Ah, ah
SARAH: “More intimacy, less round peg, round hole, go.”
KAYLA: That is fair. I think also that's an interesting point because we talk about like the reasons for acespec people having sex of like, oh, if you don't feel attraction, like what are you doing it for at all? And so, I think that's an interesting point of not focusing on the sex itself, but looking at why, like the character motivations for why it's happening.
SARAH: Yeah. Someone commented and said… oh, this is the person who wrote the Avengers gangbang. And they said…
KAYLA: My hero.
SARAH: They said, “smut isn't my favorite thing to write, but I like to use it for interesting character moments or to really illustrate a change in a relationship between two or more people. It's not really interesting to me in a sexual way…” Sorry.
KAYLA: What is she carrying? A tissue?
SARAH: It's one of those like little drawstring bags, like really small ones.
KAYLA: Her purse.
SARAH: Sorry. Sorry. Addie just picked up an item off of my desk and walked away with it.
KAYLA: Luckily, I have a purse.
SARAH: I have a purse. Okay.
KAYLA: She's on the go. Her purse.
SARAH: She's now playing with it on the floor. At least she's not making noise. “It's not really interesting to me in a sexual way, but it's interesting to me in a dynamics way.” And OP responds and says, “that's also a big part of why I enjoy smut. I like how it can change or reflect the dynamics of the characters. That's also generally why I love shipping in general, because if I think these characters will have an interesting and fun dynamic, then I want to see that explored.”
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: There are also people here saying like, “as an ace person, I can't.”
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And that's also super-relevant, like this person says, “I'm aro-allo and I think this is absolutely the case, at least a not significant amount of the time. Romance is one of my favorite things to write and I am very, very good at it.” Okay, brag.
KAYLA: Brag. Confidence.
SARAH: “I think because of spending so much time trying to figure out what makes up romantic feelings exactly and how they affect people…”
KAYLA: This is what I said.
SARAH: “On the other hand, I'm terrible at writing smut. Any sex in my work tends to be quite romantic and feelings-oriented and the moment I try to write actual pure smut I suddenly write like a seventh grader.”
KAYLA: So funny.
SARAH: “I think I lack the self-awareness to deconstruct the minute details that make up sexual feelings because I have them innately and have never had to study in order to understand them.” So, this person…
KAYLA: See, they said what I said, but better. Bitch!!
SARAH: Yeah. Allosexual…
KAYLA: Don't say, “yeah.”
SARAH: Yeah. Allosexual…
KAYLA: Ugh, ah…
SARAH: Aro romantic.
KAYLA: I'm the guest.
SARAH: And…
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: They are better with the romance because they've had to think about it more.
KAYLA: Yeah. It's the self-awareness and like they said, like the studying of what is this and what makes up these like scripts.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: And like you said before, obviously, as with all things, acespec, you're going to have a range of people that are like, “I cannot do this,” to people that are like, “I love it, it makes me horny.”
SARAH: Yeah. This person says, “I think the reason they write well is because they're able to separate the smut and view it objectively rather than being influenced by their horniness, which often leads to just plain weird descriptions (side eyes, the word gaping.)”
KAYLA: Ew, who said that?
SARAH: And then someone responds with, “is gaping bad?” Yeah. Don't use gaping.
KAYLA: I don't know that I've ever read something that used that word, that's horrible.
SARAH: Don't ever use gaping.
KAYLA: Why? Because that's also… why? No, thank you.
SARAH: Yeah. All right. So, let's move… Let's pivot. It's still… it's all a part of everything.
KAYLA: Right.
SARAH: Let's talk about aros and romance.
KAYLA: Yeah. Now, Sarah.
SARAH: Yes.
KAYLA: As our resident aro writer… I guess I could have asked, did you ever write smut?
SARAH: I have not written smut.
KAYLA: Okay
SARAH: Although one time I told my friend, I was like, “Oh, I've never written smut.” And they said to me, they were like, “but you could though, if you tried.”
KAYLA: Well, yeah, of course you could.
SARAH: But like they were…
KAYLA: You’re a skilled writer, obviously.
SARAH: It was very important to them to be like, “no, you'd be good at it if you did it.”
KAYLA: Oh, that's nice. Well, they're probably right. Okay. So anyway, you have no experience with that.
SARAH: Hi, this is Sarah from the future. So, I realized something after we finished recording and I was thinking back on my own writings that I wanted to include, which is that I often find myself writing about sex without actually writing the sex. Like not that often, but often enough for it to be notable, I feel. And you know, it's the sort of thing where it's characters talking about sex or about the sex lives of other people. And I think that one thing hits on all of the main points we've seen discussed on this topic, which is that I would not really be comfortable with that kind of conversation in real-life with real people I know. And so, putting it in fiction gives me that experience without actually having to experience it. I'm an extra-level of detached from it and the way that Kayla was talking about being an extra-level of detached from it when it's being written versus on the screen. And it's just like an interesting foreign thing for me that I can explore in fiction without having to experience the asexual discomfort of confronting it in real-life. And it reflects what others have said in that I think that sex can say a lot about a dynamic, and it can change a dynamic. And it's so interesting to me to explore that in fiction, even if I'm not writing the this second and fucking, you know? Okay, that's all. Thank you.
KAYLA: As an allo writer...
SARAH: She meant to say aro, just go with it.
KAYLA: Who has written romance, thoughts?
SARAH: I don't know…
KAYLA: Do you like my questions? I'm a really good interviewer.
SARAH: You’re really good interviewer.
KAYLA: One time, a guest of ours told us we were really good interviewers with good questions, and I was like, “that's funny.”
SARAH: That's so silly.
KAYLA: “That's hilarious.”
SARAH: I think you're just not used to being interviewed by people who are acespec, I think that's it.
KAYLA: Ew. Because I was like, “I don't think so.” But anyway. Thank you, though.
SARAH: I have no fucking idea.
KAYLA: Content.
SARAH: I don't read a lot of straight fiction, straight in the sense of straight up, not in the sense of hetero.
KAYLA: Like literary fiction.
SARAH: Yeah. Like, I don't read a lot of romance in that realm.
KAYLA: Mm-hmm
SARAH: Like, what's on my bookshelf? ‘Pride and Prejudice.’
KAYLA: That is… well, okay.
SARAH: No, I'm naming the only ones I can think of that are on my bookshelf.
KAYLA: Oh, oh. You have ‘Red, White & Royal Blue.’
SARAH: ‘Red, White & Royal Blue,’ and then the other Casey McQuiston’s sapphic book about the…
KAYLA: ‘One Last Stop.’
SARAH: ‘One Last Stop’
KAYLA: Now, I'm just looking at my bookshelf, you got ‘Fault in Our Stars’ on there? Because I still have that from middle school.
SARAH: Yeah, I do. I don't have… but like ‘Fault in Our Stars,’ I guess… yes
KAYLA: It's definitely a romance.
SARAH: It is a romance. Okay, but I don't have a lot of books that are like purely romance books.
KAYLA: Yes, yes
SARAH: But I have read a lot of fan fiction, which is often very romance-heavy.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Even if it's like genre or even if it's canon to whatever universe it's supposed to be in or that sort of thing.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: So, have I read a lot of romance? Probably.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: But I can't really quantify it.
KAYLA: Just, it wasn't necessarily classed that way genre-wise.
SARAH: Right.
KAYLA: You have read a lot of content that has romance in it on purpose.
SARAH: Yes
KAYLA: It just wasn't the main genre.
SARAH: Correct.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And so, I don't know. I mean, people who have read my fics have told me they're very good, I don't know.
KAYLA: Love that. Love that.
SARAH: I don't know what to tell you. Someday, someday when I write my acespec sapphic romcom…
KAYLA: So, I was just going to ask, because I know you've… isn't that why you're currently working?
SARAH: No.
KAYLA: Or is it something else?
SARAH: No.
KAYLA: I thought you were working on something.
SARAH: I'm working on many things, but right now that's not one of them.
KAYLA: Okay. Boo.
SARAH: Sorry.
KAYLA: When you write romance stuff, where does it come from?
SARAH: Well, my fingers, I usually type.
KAYLA: Right. So, you're writing characters flirting.
SARAH: Uh huh.
KAYLA: Where do you pull that reference from if you've never purposefully, because we know you've done it accidentally…
SARAH: Right.
KAYLA: When you've not purposely done that?
SARAH: I don't know. Media, other things, like I feel like a lot of the like more like ‘flirting’ that I write is really just people like negging each other.
KAYLA: I hate that word.
SARAH: Sorry, I don't know what to tell you.
KAYLA: I don't like that.
[00:30:00]
SARAH: You don't like that concept or just the word specifically?
KAYLA: I don't like the word and I don't like… I understand what you're saying.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: I think negging has been taken to a new level of like the like, “pro-dating tips for alpha males, you got to tell her that she's fucking ugly and then she'll be sad and fuck you.”
SARAH: “That she’s ugly.” Yeah. I don’t mean that.
KAYLA: Like, that’s what I think of as negging now, I know that's not what you mean, but men have ruined it.
SARAH: Right.
KAYLA: Again. But I know what you mean, just like a playful banter.
SARAH: Yeah. It's just like playful banter that one might have between friends, but also you want a kiss.
KAYLA: But also, they want a kiss, yeah.
SARAH: Like, I guess I just kind of put those things together. The thing about the acespec sapphic romcom that I still haven't written is I have never written sapphic romance before. And I want this to be sapphic.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: But I've never done it before.
KAYLA: And I wonder, to me, it seems like it might be harder because as we know from sapphics that it's difficult to tell if one is flirting with you because you're like, are we just being girls in the bathroom being friends?
SARAH: That’s my point
KAYLA: No, I know. But that seems to me that it would be extra hard to write and get the point across to the reader of like, no, no, they're not being like girly friends, they're like flirting. You know what I mean?
SARAH: But you can do that in the writing.
KAYLA: It seems difficult to me, but this is why I'm not the writer.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Don't look at me like that. Yeah.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: What a bitch.
SARAH: I guess. I don't know. I feel like I am a little bit scared to write it because like it is more adjacent to me.
KAYLA: Mm hmm.
SARAH: And I haven't written straight shit in a while either. Like recently, I've only written like achillean shit recently.
KAYLA: Interesting.
SARAH: So, I don't know what any of that means. But…
KAYLA: Um…
SARAH: What? Yes?
KAYLA: I just, someday will change your… one day… Sometimes our mutual friend Perry, who is someone that we know from college that I now live in Boston with, sometimes they just check in with me and they're like, “so how is… are we there yet?”
SARAH: “Are we there yet?”
KAYLA: I'm like, “no.”
SARAH: “Are we there yet?”
KAYLA: “Nooooo. Patiently waiting.”
SARAH: I don't think it's in that sort of way, I think it's partially…
KAYLA: But it's funny.
SARAH: I think… Okay, I think also because the fandom… with K-pop, it's like the fandoms that I'm in.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And it's definitely… there's like some level of gender-envy, but like that's not the main thing.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: But I think in general, just with like reading achillean things for me, it goes back to what I said earlier about smut where it's like, it's not me, it's not connected to me, it will not be connected to me.
KAYLA: Yeah. It's more comfortably distant because you're like, “I don't have any of that going on.”
SARAH: Right. I literally couldn't if I wanted to.
KAYLA: I don't have those. I don't have those. I mean, you could.
SARAH: It would be an involved process.
KAYLA: You just have to purchase some things, you know.
SARAH: No, I… No, I... Yes, but... okay, yeah, okay
KAYLA: Yeah. There are options, they're just.
SARAH: No, I know there are options.
KAYLA: They just all require…
SARAH: I meant more like…
KAYLA: It doesn't matter, I know what you meant, it doesn't matter.
SARAH: It does not matter.
KAYLA: LOL.
SARAH: I have found another Reddit, this one is on r/asexuality.
KAYLA: Wow.
SARAH: And it says, “smut helped me come to terms with being ace.”
KAYLA: Wow.
SARAH: Are you ready?
KAYLA: Mm hmm
SARAH: Because it's ace week, it's not anymore, but it was.
KAYLA: But it was. Trust. It was.
SARAH: “I thought I'd share a funny part of my ace journey. A couple of years ago, I was recommended the ACOTAR books by my best friend.” So those would be A Court of Thorns and Roses books, the fairy smut.
KAYLA: Yes.
SARAH: “As I would do anything for her, I decided to read them. I did not really know I was getting into a smut book, but it was definitely an experience reading it.”
KAYLA: That's so funny.
SARAH: “I had been very comfortable in saying I was demisexual, not actually true, I was just scared to admit to myself that I was ace. Reading these books was so informative. I remember thinking, wait, people actually do this? And that's how other people think? I know it's all probably over-exaggerated in the book, but I was so unaware that people wanted those types of things in life. Just a small portion of my time of figuring out I was ace. Thanks for reading.”
KAYLA: That's very silly. That's very silly.
SARAH: This comment says, “I gave one of my allo friends a minor existential crisis because I sent him a random snippet of a few different smutty scenes from books and asked how legit they were. He had to call me and explain that, yes, they are legit and then spent about 10 minutes processing that I do not and have never experienced anything like that when I explained my perspective.” Also, here's another thing that's important to know, okay? In fiction, but especially in fan fiction, there are things that you just can gloss over for the purpose of fan fiction.
KAYLA: Such as?
SARAH: I'm just thinking, listen.
KAYLA: Oh, oh, I'm scared.
SARAH: No. Some of the grosser aspects of sex can just be ignored or they're just like, oh, he stuck it in and it's like, I'm sorry, was no lube used at all!?
KAYLA: Oh, I mean, I don't think that's just a fan fiction thing, I think it depends on the author.
SARAH: Yes, it does. But I think often in fanfiction that is intentionally left out because they are running on the assumption that their audience knows that this shit is not real. So, it can be whatever.
KAYLA: Interesting.
SARAH: And so, I think there is a valid question of being like, okay, like, is this legit? Because like, if you only get your education from fanfiction, you might think things that are not accurate.
KAYLA: Yeah. And I think the same could be said for fiction too. I have read a wide variety of like some fiction will be like the same way, completely gloss over it. And you're like, “okay, were we wearing protection? Was anything discussed?” To like stuff that's maybe like a little overly like it feels a little like shoved in your face
SARAH: Yeah
KAYLA: Of like, look how good of an author I'm being educated you about like, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, okay, I get it. Like, you're great. Fine.
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: Yeah. But no, that's fair, because as we know, fictional sex and romance is not always accurate. And so, if that's your only exposure to it, then it's like, okay, are we actually like… are we actually doing it?
SARAH: And I feel like a lot of ace people… This is less true for romance, because it's more out in the world. But for acespec people who are sex-averse, like that might be their main education in what sex is.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And then they go on to write some great smut
KAYLA: And then it's great, yeah.
SARAH: This person says, “it took me a while to get used to those scenes. At first, it just grossed me out and I thought there was no way people actually did those things. Now I actually love reading smut. But in an aww, good for them way…”
KAYLA: No, that’s so cute
SARAH: “But I would not want to do those things.”
KAYLA: Aww, that's cute.
SARAH: This person says, “me reading the ACOTAR books smut scenes like it's only something that happens in fiction, just like the fairies.”
KAYLA: Okay, that's the thing I was gonna say this earlier than I forgot, is it so different from someone writing science fiction or fantasy?
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: If this is someone… if you are an ace who has happened to never have sex, is it really that different from, say, a fantasy author who has obviously never seen a mermaid but has read other media about mermaids?
SARAH: Is that different…
KAYLA: Is it?
SARAH: From a person who…
KAYLA: Is it?
SARAH: Who writes about tentacle fucking?
KAYLA: Right
SARAH: Have you been fucked by a real tentacle?
KAYLA: I one time accidentally read about tentacle fucking.
SARAH: How did that make you feel?
KAYLA: I was frightened. Because if I had known it was coming, I think I could have been…
SARAH: You could have prepared yourself.
KAYLA: I was like… I would have been like, “interesting. Let's learn together.”
SARAH: Yeah.
KAYLA: But it really came out of nowhere and I was like, “whoa!”
SARAH: You were like, “oh, no.”
KAYLA: And I was like, “that is not what I was expecting to be here today.”
SARAH: That's how I feel when I'm reading…
KAYLA: My parents listen to this.
SARAH: Well, great, now they know.
KAYLA: Now they know. Hey, I didn't seek it out, mom.
SARAH: Yeah. Sandy, please.
KAYLA: It came to me. It came to me, mom.
SARAH: Your 28-year-old daughter. Sometimes I have that experience where I'm reading the description of a fic and I'm like, “oh, that sounds really good.” And then I look at the tags and I see that it's ABO and I'm like, “I'm sorry, I can't.”
KAYLA: I don't know if I know what that means.
SARAH: It's the alpha, beta, omega.
KAYLA: Oh.
SARAH: That thing.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And I'm like, I know some people are… I can't…
KAYLA: It's not my particular thing, but I love that for you.
SARAH: I'm allergic.
KAYLA: I'm allergic.
[00:40:00]
SARAH: This person says, ‘I actually realized I was ace by reading the Pervocracy blog, which I recommend regardless, Cliff is extremely insightful. I was just going along and not relating to anything once the sex actually started. I'd be getting really into the excellent writing and thoughts on group dynamics and consent and then just nope. Like playing a Sandbox and hitting a spot that's going to be DLC that isn't out yet.” I don't know what that means.
KAYLA: It's a gaming thing.
SARAH: Great. He said, “I do read smut on the two to three days a month when my hormones decide to be irritating, the rest of the time I skim/skip the sex.”
KAYLA: I love scheduled smut reading. I love prescribing yourself smut two to three days a month.
SARAH: That's really funny. Oh no, this person on Quora, six years ago…
KAYLA: Damn. Throwback.
SARAH: Said, “as an asexual smut reader, my dad found out and I really didn't know how to explain to him that for me it's not about the sexuality, it's just another part of characterization. So, I built an elaborate lie that I'm sure he saw right through and it was probably the most embarrassing moment of my life. I wanted to die and then he told me he mentioned it to my mom.”
KAYLA: Oh good, just what you want.
SARAH: The Quora question was, ‘why are so many smut writers asexual?’ And this person just goes, “I don't know. I write S&M action/adventure novels and I am definitely not asexual. Nor are the fellow authors that I know and have talked to.” You're not contributing anything…
KAYLA: Okay, no one is asking you.
SARAH: This isn't for you.
KAYLA: No one asked you to be here.
SARAH: Something that I found that I think is very silly, informational and good but silly, is I found this Tumblr post from Robot Squid on Tumblr and it's, ‘how to write about sex for asexuals first time or for the otherwise inexperienced.’
KAYLA: Oh, what a nice guide.
SARAH: Let me just give you the tips.
KAYLA: Mm hmm
SARAH: “Read some.” As in smut.
KAYLA: Sure.
SARAH: “Know your anatomy.”
KAYLA: Good.
SARAH: “Figure out your comfort zone.” Yes, that's important.
KAYLA: Mm hmm
SARAH: They also said, for knowing your anatomy, “you don't have to type dicks into Google or anything and in fact, perhaps…”
KAYLA: Perhaps
SARAH: “I would recommend not…”
KAYLA: Not
SARAH: “Typing dicks into Google.”
KAYLA: Yeah, perhaps don’t.
SARAH: Okay. Here are some things that first-time smut writers should be aware of. Because if you don't learn it now, then you'll learn it from some faceless commenter screaming at you or a self-righteous viral text post about dumb ass writers. Alright, do you want to know what these most important things are?
KAYLA: I'm so scared.
SARAH: “Simultaneous orgasms are very rare.”
KAYLA: Mm hmm
SARAH: “If you're writing about anal sex of any kind, mention lube.”
KAYLA: Mm hmm
SARAH: “Have a friend that you feel comfortable asking questions about sex.”
KAYLA: Mm hmm
SARAH: “Keep track of your character's positions, otherwise they'll grow a third hand.”
KAYLA: Too many hands, yeah
SARAH: This includes clothing. Beta readers are extremely helpful on this.
KAYLA: True
SARAH: Can attest, not contest.
KAYLA: Attest
SARAH: Can attest.
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And, “establish consent.” Yeah, bitch.
KAYLA: Mm hmm
SARAH: This is a much longer post and I just gave you the headlines, but I saw this and I said, “oh, that's silly.”
KAYLA: I think that's very nice and helpful.
SARAH: It is. It's nice and helpful.
KAYLA: And silly.
SARAH: It's all of these things.
SARAH: Is there anything else we want to say?
KAYLA: No.
SARAH: I think people generally just like reading smut.
KAYLA: Mm hmm
SARAH: And so, if you're a writer and you want to write and you want to create these worlds and you do write smut… Like, I saw a comment that said, this person is like, fics that had smut in them like did better than any of the other fics
KAYLA: Yeah
SARAH: And that could be because they're a really good smut writer, but it also just could be because people like smut.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: And so, write… if you… you know?
KAYLA: Yeah, I mean, if you're going… yeah, if you want to get your writing out there and you know, that's what does it, then like, sure. I also think just like if you're a writer, it's a good practice to write about, I say not knowing anything, it seems like a good practice to write about things you don't know about or maybe aren't comfortable with to like practice and shit.
SARAH: Yeah. Okay. I do have one more thing I found on Reddit. It says, “me, chooses to read smut. Also, me, they have makeup sex for the 999th time!?” This person goes, “I am a sex-positive individual, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong about sex as long as it's among consenting adults. I also get the gist of why allos seem to really like sex. The idea of sex is actually amusing to me. So, maybe that's why I've often consumed such media alongside romance and across other genres, movies, dramas, books blah, blah, blah. I like to read smut because it always gives me a funny experience (Smiley face.) Whenever the couple has sex in the story, I often find myself cringing and laughing at how there is some kind of absurdity and awkwardness to the scenes. The pacing, use of words, expressions, describing genitalia, and most of all, the nonstop sex (smiley face.)
KAYLA: Honestly, fair, sex is silly, what are you doing?
SARAH: It is so silly.
KAYLA: So silly
SARAH: And then there are some aspects where I'm like, “please just don't describe…” like, I don't like… like, I don't know that this is me being ace or just like I don't want to hear about sound like slapping sounds.
KAYLA: Mm hmm. Yeah.
SARAH: No, no, no, no. I don't like it. So that's that.
KAYLA: Love it.
SARAH: Kayla, what's our poll for this week?
KAYLA: I think our poll should be thoughts on smut. Do you read it? Do you write it?
SARAH: Wait, I have one more thing that relates to this poll I found on r/fanfiction from two years ago. It says, “all right, show of hands, how many of y'all are aces reading or writing smut?” One hundred and thirty-one people said, “what the hell is an ace?”
KAYLA: Uh oh.
SARAH: Sixty-three people said, “ace/aro not reading or writing romance and smut.” And three hundred and seventy-five people said, “ace/aro reading or writing romance and smut.” So, a large majority
KAYLA: Love it.
SARAH: Now, to be fair, this is putting romance and smut together.
KAYLA: Yeah, which… Yeah.
SARAH: I would be curious to like break it out.
KAYLA: Yeah.
SARAH: Anyway, what was our poll?
KAYLA: Do you read it? Write it? Thoughts?
SARAH: Do you read it? Write it? Thoughts? Are you afraid of it?
KAYLA: Fair
SARAH: Did you give it a shot once and said, “not for me?” Did you give it a shot once and were surprised at how much it was for you?
KAYLA: Tell us everything.
SARAH: Tell us everything. Kayla, what's your beef and your juice for this week?
KAYLA: Ah, wow, what a great question. My beef is fascism.
SARAH: Yeah, I agree.
KAYLA: My juice is I got to see Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Jackson speak live last week, and that was cool.
SARAH: Nice. You did both beef and juice and I remembered that.
KAYLA: And she knows.
SARAH: My juice is I saw Le Sserafim last weekend, they were very good. I got to ask Yun-jin the world's most important question, which was… because she has always said that she almost went to college in Boston, she paid the deposit, and then they were like, “actually, you're going to debut.” And so, she was like, “damn, that's crazy. I already paid the deposit. I guess, I'm not going to college.” And I always wanted to know what school in Boston it was. And so, I asked her and she told me it was Northeastern. Anyway, that is my juice. Also, this weekend, I'm going to Chicago to see TXT with my mom.
KAYLA: Chicago.
SARAH: Chicago. My beef is Spotify keeps giving me the same shuffle. I will shuffle…
KAYLA: Isn’t there a way to turn that off?
SARAH: But it didn't used to do this.
KAYLA: I just know that I've seen people say there's a setting that it gives you what it thinks your preferred songs are.
SARAH: That's not what I mean.
KAYLA: Never mind then.
SARAH: I mean, it gives me an identical shuffle two days in a row.
KAYLA: Oh, I don't know what to say about that.
SARAH: For example, last night I was listening to some tunes, I was doing some writing, I was listening to some tunes and the next song that came on was the song ‘Uranus’ by Sleeping At Last. And I said, “this is not the vibe. This isn't the mood.” A good song, but not the mood. So, I looked in my queue and I looked at the song and I was like, “mm, I don't know.” So, I skipped around. I think… I don't know if I reshuffled or not, whatever. Today, I was driving home from work, I clicked on a song on my everything playlist to have it shuffle the whole thing and I was listening to it, and then it went to the next song and the next song was ‘Uranus’ by Sleeping At Last and I looked at the shuffle and I said, “that is the exact same shuffle I got last night.”
KAYLA: That's so weird.
SARAH: So, then I had to turn the shuffle off. But then it was like, “here's your smart shuffle.” And I was like, “fuck you.” And then I turned it off and then I turned back on. And this happened also the other day with a different playlist where it gave me the same shuffle two days in a row.
KAYLA: That's very weird.
SARAH: The same songs in the same order. I don't know if it's because it was on different devices. I don't know. It's just weird, I don't like it.
KAYLA: That is weird. I'm sorry about that.
SARAH: That's my that. You can tell us about your beef, your juice, your thoughts on smut, your favorite smut writer, your least favorite smut writer.
KAYLA: Oh
SARAH: Your favorite and least favorite smut tropes on our social media @soundsfakepod. We also have a Patreon, patreon.com/soundsfakepod. We have a new $2 patron, it's Sarah Klein.
KAYLA: Sarah.
SARAH: Thank you, Sarah. And either congrats or I'm sorry that this was the episode that you got your name in.
KAYLA: Yeah, that’s fair
[00:50:00]
SARAH: I’m not sure what your what your stance is. I will say, though, we have three $2 patrons named Sarah and all of them spell their name correctly.
KAYLA: Huge for us.
SARAH: Huge for us. Thank you. Our $5 patrons who we are promoting this week are Ashley W, Bronwyn Harron, Clark Fadoir, Fadwoh? I still don't know. Jiro the Wolf and Arctic Enby. Our $10 patrons are Purple Hayes, who would like to promote the musician Vinther, Quartertone, who would like to promote World Central Kitchen & Doctors Without Borders, Barefoot Backpacker who would like to promote their YouTube channel rtw barefoot, SongOStorm, who would like to promote a healthy work life balance, and Val who would like to promote… our other $10 patrons are Alastor, Ani, Arcnes, Benjamin Ybarra, Clare Olsen, Derick & Carissa, Elle Bitter, Eric, my aunt Jeannie, Johanna, Kayla's dad, Maff, and Martin Chiesl. Not…
KAYLA: Martine Gazelle
SARAH: Chiesl like Giselle but not Gazelle
KAYLA: Martin Gazelle.
SARAH: And our $15 patrons are Ace, who would like to promote the writer Crystal Scherer, Nathaniel White, NathanielJWhiteDesigns.com, Kayla's aunt Nina, who would like to promote katemaggartart.com, and Schnell, who would like to promote accepting that everyone is different and that's awesome. Our $20 patrons are Changeling & Alex, who would like to promote their company, ControlAltAccess.com, and Dragonfly, my mom, and River, who would like to promote the fact that Kayla's parents listen to this podcast. Thanks for listening, tune in next Sunday for more of us in your ears.
KAYLA: And until then, take good care of your cows.
[END OF TRANSCRIPT]
